The three guitar workflow paradigms I most often encounter

I wanted to share my categorization of the three most common pedalboard control paradigms that I run into, hoping that this will shed some light on why I am asking the things I am asking, and why I am sometimes having difficulties with some of the proposed solutions.

Keep in mind that even though I’m dividing these into three concepts, they often share some common standard utilities like tap tempo, tuner access, and expression pedal functions for volume and wah, regardless of the core type.

I’m using the term “Multi-FX” to describe products such as the Line 6 Helix, Neural DSP Quad Cortex, Fractal’s Axe-FX and Fender’s Tone Master Pro among many many others. Basically hardware boxes which let you add, route and switch “FX” such as amp modellers, choruses, reverbs, etc.

  1. Preset Switchers: Most if not all of the entire pedalboard is dedicated to calling up presets, which may be switched multiple times within a song. A lot of people who came from Bradshaw Boards like to operate this way. The big downsides to this are time gaps and/or audio spikes during switching. People who operate this way often get extremely good at finding places to hide the switching such as right before a note. Preset “spillover” (such as reverb and delay trails) available on some Multi-FX systems can also help mitigate some of the downsides of preset switching. Gig Performer handles this pretty well in the form of “Rackspaces”. There can still be some gaps and spikes from switching Rackspaces, but I find it switches faster and smoother than anything but the Boss GT-1000 (arguably as the GT-1000 switching can in some cases have a noticeable gap). Setlist mode seems to have the same switching performance as Rackspaces. I’m not sure if there’s a way to do spillover here, but I wouldn’t be surprised if using Global Rackspaces could handle a lot of that.

  2. Stompers: The board is split; roughly half the pedals select presets, while roughly the other half toggles individual effects on and off. In some variations, all pedals control individual effects, and another function is used to select presets (using a multifunction MIDI controller for instance or on the Helix where hitting a bank up or down button will show you a bank of presets which once selected return you to stomp mode in the newly selected preset). Gig Performer seems to handle this paradigm perfectly using Rackspaces. I have yet to run into a situation where I had any problem setting Gig Performer up this way with a MIDI pedalboard. I’m sure my take on this could be improved, but as far as I can tell, Gig Performer handles this paradigm with flying colors

  3. Snappers: Pedals call up “snapshots” (settings within a preset). Typically, the top row selects global presets and the bottom row selects snapshots, though, like Stompers, some systems dedicate all pedals to snapshots, with another function for preset selection. I have found several ways in Gig Performer to make these both gapless and spike free, I’m probably using too many instances of the same plugin to handle this, but so far it doesn’t look like I’m anywhere near running out of power on an M1 Mac Mini. This has been my hardest paradigm to translate to Gig Performer. It seems like Panel mode will be the way to go for this one. Because variations and song parts use the same command, I haven’t come up with a way in Setlist mode to start a song with the proper variation without the pedals becoming rearranged in function. Also, the “Ignore Variations” setting in Widget properties also ignoring Song changes is particularly tricky for me to deal with. I would hope there were a way to chose whether or not to extend that to include or exclude changing songs from this function.

These are generalizations, and a degree of hybridization is common, especially between paradigms 1 and 2, and often within 2 and 3.

For paradigm 3 especially, but also sometimes for 1 and 2 when they use a hybrid approach, there are another couple of gotchas. When it comes to the recall of settings, often users want to chose whether, after making changes to a variation A(say turning a wah pedal on while you are playing) and then switching to variation B, when switching back to variation A, either resetting to the original saved value of the Rackspace or Song Variation, or whether it should be in the same state as it was last left in. Also whether a switch toggles an FX to its opposite bypass state (toggling changes bypassed to active or active to bypassed) vs directly specifying bypassed or engaged based on the pedal state (for instance, values >=64 mean active and values < 64 mean bypassed)

Preset switching of individual plugins has been a difficult point for me, and in the last few days I have asked our programmer to make sure our plugins could do this as exposed parameters and learned that it’s not the easiest thing to do, which is likely why it’s so uncommon. I do see plugins that can put patches into a setlist or grid to handle it, but I think we will be allowing PC messages to switch ours (and making sure it passes that PC value out on change as well so that Gig Performer’s widgets can be properly updated), even though this does bring up headaches about reordering and hitting preset limits.

I’d love any and all suggestions, keeping in mind that a lot of these ways of working are unlikely to be broken willingly by their respective aficionados, but don’t let that stop you! Especially interested in spillover ideas for paradigm 1, the Preset Switchers, as I think I am still not quite grasping the power of Global Rackspaces.

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What do you mean by global presets? And how many are there?

Are these individual effects part of the global presets?

I have no idea why I put “global” in there…I have fixed it now. These are just presets as opposed to snapshots. They could have different plugins or fx in the preset, as opposed to a snapshot which would just have different settings of the same group of FX. Some of these Multi-FX can have thousands of presets, often arranged in Setlists containing banks of however many pedals are available for preset selection.

Even though the “global” thing was a mistype or some other weird error on my part, Gig Performer’s ability to have Global Rackspaces kind of blurs the lines a bit here and probably a pretty powerful way of not just getting around some issues, but offering things not really addressed in most multi-FX units (aside from some of them having say a global eq on some or all outputs)

I don’t think there’s going to be “one size fits all” paradigm for how to accommodate people with all sorts of different pedalboard approaches and huge differences of complexity.

GP has the concept of Songs and Songparts for people who want to work that way. Sometimes i do, sometimes I don’t. Really depends on what I’m doing.

GP also has the concept of Rackspaces and Variations, which might be more useful for people who are more “tone” oriented.

I think setting up GP for Angus Young would look a lot different than setting it up for The Edge.

If any individual user asked me what I thought would be the best setup for them the first thing I’d want to know is how they would prefer to operate. People often learn to use the tools available to them, but it doesn’t mean they prefer them. I operated out of a DAW before I discovered GP. The second thing I’d need to know is what type of (presumably foot) controller they’re going to be using.

You posted a picture earlier using an FCB1010. When I was using that I designed my Gigfile around that reality. If I was using an RJM Mastermind it would likely be different, and a Morningstar MC8 Pro might again be different.

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I hope I didn’t in any way suggest I was trying to figure out any one size fits all anything. Its pretty much the opposite of what I’m trying to do

This is what I did and why I listed the three most common paradigms people want me to work on them with

That shouldn’t happen unless you have plugins in two adjacent rackspaces that are using too much CPU cycles such that when both rackspaces are active (for smooth persistence) your computer can’t handle the load.

So lots of interesting material here to think about. That said, I want to push back (just) a little for discussion.

If one makes decisions based on existing paradigms (like those three) then I would argue that the standard paradigm used by pretty much every DAW and the vast majority of plugin hosts is the channel strip model which kinda imitates the old-fashioned model of a mixing desk. If that is to be the driver, then by ignoring the channel strip paradigm we made a terrible mistake :slight_smile:

On the other hand, by replacing that paradigm by something more unique, we have (based on feedback) made it much easier for musicians to be, well, musicians, again and not have to be distracted by a model that really didn’t made sense to them unless they had a Ph.D. in mix engineering. Indeed, the only users who have a problem using GP are those who try to FORCE Gig Performer to behave as if it were a channel strip model. Once one drops that “desire”, users become deeply enamored with the approach and basically never look back (again, based on customer feedback)

So that leads me to ask whether your guitarists are also somewhat “trapped” in one of those paradigms and there might actually be better ways to do things if one did not try to make Gig Performer behave as if it were one of those paradigms?

That doesn’t mean our design as it stands now is perfect or totally right, etc. But it might not be totally wrong either, even if it’s missing some needed functionality to complete it.

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I need to better understand how it works with rackspaces and whether they are preloaded or what, but there are other things that could make a gap, such as the reported Plugin Delay Compensation I see of some of the plugins I’m using when I see them in a DAW that can display reported PDC. In realtime use for playing a guitar thru, it would be like an armed track in a DAW, and given that we don’t have time travel at the moment, that could be enough to gap it. Maybe. I really need to read up on how rackpaces are handled.

A big part of designing REAPER was that the static channel strip model of many DAWs was getting you really stuck. Sidechaining a bass guitar to be ducked by a kick drum track, for instance was mostly a nightmare before that and required ridiculous workarounds. I wanted a screwdriver, a soldering iron and a patchback that had patch points in the start and end of every process. The existing channel strip model, IF you were even lucky enough to have it emulate the sort of functions of an SSL channel (which could swap the order of a few things in a very limited way), barely, if at all, allowed you to change some bits of the routing. I see channel strip paradigms as an excellent way to work extremely quickly and roughly, but the second you really needed to route something, you were toast.

I don’t feel like I’m missing out on anything with the way you guys designed this. I don’t remember if it was you or Nebosja, but last time I really tried doing computer based stuff, I was using REAPER with SWS Live scripts and LBX Stripper to pull things off, while using JS plugins to handle auto engage and all that. You guys showed me how Gig Performer allowed some scripting to do those functions. 99% of my fight was fighting against the channel strip paradigm, and just how to efficiently load things that effectively were channel strips on separate tracks, and keep really really ugly things to do with buffering and unmuting in order to save enough CPU to actually play realistically without also crashing by bringing inactive plugins online.

There are a few things where I could say “man if I was just swapping channel strips here, it would be simple” but the moment I think of how I’d lay that out on a pedalboard, I remember my SWS Live Configs trauma and the feeling of being stuck on train tracks you just couldn’t jump off of.

Of course they are! These are still people who insist on bringing giant amp onstage and blowing the ears off of customers completely ignoring standards and regulations that we are moving towards for ear protection as if they are still living in an era when we didn’t put seatbelts on kids! Getting them on in-ears takes weeks of remedial education. Many of them still believe one species of wood has magical electrical properties not shared by another species of wood, dendrochronology be damned. Its hard to think of a group more resistant to change…or reason…The ones I’m dealing with are at least able to see the benefits of some parts of digital technology, and the Helix/AxeFX market exists in a large way thanks to them

But they, and even me, don’t want our wah pedals to fly from one side of our pedalboards to another in between songs. We don’t want to try and keep track of which pedal is our clean patch and which pedal is our lead patch

I think I’m only a tiny bit away, with most of that being pilot error. There are a few things which I hope are small like separating variations from songs when using “ignore variations” in widget properties, and having a choice on whether a widget goes back to the last state you left it in per variation or whether it goes back to its saved state, but even with those as they are, I’m pretty much there. I’ll be taking this board to practice Tuesday night and trying all three of the paradigms I listed above out.

There’s the old saying, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

I’m struggling to understand what you’re trying to do in actual practice. What I’ve gathered is you want to convert other guitarists into moving over to a computer-based approach, and have a product or service in mind to sell them as they make the transition.

But the products you mention (other than simple stomp boxes) actually are computers. They’re computers built into pedals with buttons and (generally) displays that let the user see what they’re doing. Helix, Axe, Kemper, etc. are just less powerful but simpler and dedicated alternatives to GP that generally offer controller options that were designed with a lot of thought.

If you’re going to convert somebody from their Helix the question shouldn’t be “how do I replicate your Helix with a computer, some software, and an FCB1010” but “what are your frustrations with Helix, and can a computer-based system alleviate those?”

I think GP could be a good solution for most musicians, but it’s still used by a pretty small minority of them. I think it has to eliminate a frustration they have or fill an unmet need, rather than just “you’ll hardly notice the difference.”

Regarding your various comments about hearing artifacts or lags or clicks and pops, I think you’re either doing something wrong or are not employing some simple fixes. But this stuff is hard to talk about in the abstract without specific examples of exactly what you’re trying to do.

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@TimStarace Would be interested in your perspective of this discussion

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Its not me trying to move people to a computer, its a whole category of guitarists who realize that the the Helix Stadium potentially, and was marketed as, a replacement for the playback engineer and other show running functions. It just so happened at the moment that we have a product which will undoubtedly be used in this situation because of who contracted us to develop it, but I’ve always tried over the years to make the computer based setup viable for myself, and Gig Performer has long had these show control functions, years before the Stadium was even announced.

So, which issues can a computer based system alleviate? How about fixing bugs on YOUR schedule rather than the developer’s? Not to mention abandonware. Missing a particular fx type that is available in VST/AU form? Just add it yourself. Want WAY smoother, glitch free, gapless switching? Gig Performer can do that. Want auto engage when the developer says it a dumb idea? Sorry Charlie, you can just script that in Gig Performer. Want event based control of your show along a timeline? Gig Performer can do it…Are your switching duties so insane during a song that it looks like you are tap dancing? Gig Performer can handle that for you. Run out of power? Gig Performer is happy to run on the next, more powerful computer you run it on. Tons of reasons why an open solution can be better than a closed one.

The very nature of some of these switches mean that gaps or spikes are unavoidable depending on how you implement it. A latent plugin CANNOT travel in time as just one example. While it seems like things happen instantaneously and simultaneously, they actually cannot, a great example is hi gain amplifier module running thru an IR being switched instantly to a clean signal without an IR, but even then there are ways to mitigate it. Using Gig Performer’s Mixer plugin and running multiple instances of the biggest troublemakers in parallel, using variations, I can achieve gap and spike free switching, but I wouldn’t expect that to be the case with Rackspace switching, even if both Rackspaces were actively processing the audio with the just outputs switched in and out ( I could see ways of making that work, but seeing the insanity of making nearly glitch free solo and mute functions in REAPER and just how much needed to be sacrificed to do it, I’d rather find other ways that work, which I have).

Sure, but “depending on how you implement it” is the key phrase.

My experience on this forum and having used GP for a number of years is that most people don’t encounter glitches, pops, and dropouts when switching Rackspaces and don’t have to do anything very complicated to get that result.

Maybe what you’re trying to do is much more complex than the norm around here. If you’re getting it to work, that’s great. If you’re not quite there yet, showing us a specific example might bring some useful ideas from other people’s experience.

I really don’t expect time travel from Gig Performer, so I expect some gapping when switching Rackspaces with latent plugins. Its still way less of a gap than most Multi-FX anyway so its not any real issue. If I want it 100% gap free, I have a way to do it with the snapshot paradigm

Again, its nothing major, and there’s no need to distract from the general idea of this thread, but here’s a little test first doing rackspace switching then doing it with snapshots instead, showing the small gap and spike in switching Rackspaces vs variations. Ignore the crud buffer weirdness sound that’s actually coming from OBS, just check out the gap and the spike when I zoom in

I don’t know what you mean by “snapshots”. That’s not a GP thing that I’m aware of.

I’m not sure why you’re getting the crackling that you are when switching rackspaces. I’d have to see your rackspaces to see why that’s happening.

In your second illustration you’re not switching Rackspaces. You’re staying within one Rackspace and switching variations.

I don’t think the difference has anything to do with going into Setlist mode. I think if you remained in panel mode and switched between those same two variations you would have gotten the same result.

But as long as you’re getting the result you want, that’s great.

Maybe I’m not typing clearly but I seem to keep having to repeat myself. I stated why the crackling occurred and that it’s OBS and not gig performer. Only the spike and gap are from gig performer. By snapshots I just mean variations. The way I have it to switch variations and using the mixer and parallel paths, there are no gaps or spikes there

But anyway, this whole gap thing is a distraction and not at all relevant to what I’m trying to discuss. I showed the gap. I showed a way to get rid of it. I have no interest in the gaps, this is more about translating the three paradigms here

Ok, well Variations are not called snapshots and you don’t need to be in Setlist mode to switch between variations. Sounds like you have a solution to your “snappers” paradigm.

When I’m playing guitar, 90% of the time I have my top row of buttons on my Morningstar MC8 Pro set to select between Rackspaces and my bottom row to switch between Variations. Anything else I might need to do is just a couple buttons away.

Your singer does an excellent Dio, by the way. Good show.

The advantage of setlist mode to me is that if you are basing a number of songs on a single rackspace, anytime you update that rackspace it updates all the songs. I call them snapshots in context to the snapshot paradigm. I know it would be clearer if I stuck with the Gig Performer names so I’ll try to do that. There is/was a problem with using variations in this way in Panel mode which Setlist mode also fixes in that in setlist mode you can have each variation return to its preset value if desired.

This is how I used to do it on my Helix as well until I started needing more snapshots, and then I used that bank switch as a way to show all available presets in the bank, not sure how I could create that workflow with Gig Performer, but I’m sure its scriptable. For now I’m using the top row to control pitch drop on one pedal, tap tempo on another, and sample playback on another. Probably really don’t need those because of how flexible gig performer is about handling stuff and could return to presets on top, variations on the bottom.

That morning star MC8 Pro looks like it has so many onscreen functions that I could remove a lot of what I’m using the touchscreen for! I may get one and have a few billion questions for you.

He’s actually the drummer of a lot of the local punk bands! He always cheeses out after his band practice and belts out scorpions songs when their singer leaves the mic unattended. When one of our school students wanted to do a Dio song, I talked him into singing it and then people kept asking us to do more and now we play a few shows a month. (one reason I want that drop pedal on there since sometimes his voice doesn’t want to go that high). Also since we don’t have a keyboard player, I have to do the rainbow in the dark and last in line keyboard parts with a Mooer E7 pedal. I tried to replace that in the computer based setup with Jam Origin MIDI guitar, but it struggles to track anywhere near as well as that 60 dollar Amazon Moeer pedal…still trying to get it set up

This is one of the singer’s regular bands he drums for

Are you able to somehow switch banks of 8 with this thing? I ended up putting a slder on the Rackspace so I can scroll songs in the setlist, but I wonder if there’s a bank type function I could do. With the Helix I have it set so that if I hit the bank up or down switch, it assigns a bank of 8 presets, one preset to each footswitch, I can further hit the bank up or down to move to the next set of 8. Pressing any of the preset switches picks that preset then returns the pedals to either 4 presets on top/4 snapshots on bottom, or my normal 7 snapshots plus one drop tune switch. I’d love to have a way where I could call up presets without using my hands, regardless of which bank they are on, but I’d definitely need at least five variations on the bottom row

FWIW, I’ve observed the term '“snapshots” to mean: saving a change in widget settings in a variation to a song part. You do it by using the little window icon on the top right of the widget panel of a song part in Setlist mode.

I do not “think” the term is used in the manual. I think the term used in the manual is “capture variations”. [I didn’t double check this, so could mistaken].

The way the MC extension (which I see you found) is set up you can page through your rackspaces or variations with a long-press of the buttons at the left and right of a row. I don’t have much patience for long-presses, so you can also do it with “auxiliary” buttons you can connect to the MC8/6. (See photo at the top of the MC8 Extension thread.)

You can also “link” both rows so that they’ll show 8 of the same things (like 8 variations or 8 rackspaces). It’s designed so that if you wanted it to toggle into showing 8 variations after selecting a different Rackspace it’ll do that. We should probably put that line of discussion to the MCx Extension thread though.

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I have used the helix and understand its functionality. I now use gig performer as my guitar pedalboard. I have accomplished a better solutions in GP than ever achieved in Helix or any other physical pedalboard for that matter. I have one rig with every defined plugin I would ever want and I modify that one rig saving it over and over as a separate variation. I use GP preset saves for anything such as switching amps or effect settings and I call them up programmatically for each variation. It works perfectly (in a previous post I detailed the script I use). For stomp functionality I use midi via the iPad midi designer app. I also use the Blue Cat patchwork plugin to add additional non-standard plugins that I have not yet defined to incorporate a limitless selection of results. I thank God everyday for Gig Performer…

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