Just found a new VST host called Camelot which is developed by Fatar.
I was interested if this new host can do what Gig Performer can and maybe better.
Some concepts are similar like set lists and song structure, others are different - but in my opinion not better.
What I miss most is … scripting and OSC support and Host automation and patch persist and variations …
The list is long.
What do you think about?
I think Gig Performer is far ahead
Yes, I found it in December when it was released. I’ve only tried it for half an hour. The concept is very different. All instruments are organized in layers. Layers are organized in scenes and they are organized in songs. It has preset lists for some of the current keyboards / workstations and/or is able to read the preset lists via SysEx (which made me very angry because I’ve developed a similar thing as iOS app 
).
In some ways it seems to be very easy to use. Combining multiple instruments as a layer which can have common properties makes it quite fast to create easy splits and layers. You can directly specify MIDI channels, transpose/octave and MIDI CC settings for each instrument without the need of external plugins. Including instant output controls for each instruments like solo/mute and volume. Or layer/split zone visualization. Really simple things are done easier than in GP. Not so simple things are… not possible 
As you said: GP is far ahead, especially when the tasks get more complicated. There’s no widgets, no automation, no decent monitoring, no MIDI plugin support, no variations, no scripting of course and not in the least as flexibel in terms of signal flow as GP.
I tried it myself but audio was a problem… I needed to have Helix Native run in there, but at that point it could only do midi and connect to keyboards - it could do that pretty well, but for what I need to do GP seemed more capable in which I had basic stuff running in 10 minutes…
Hello guys, I am aware the thread is a bit old but I have been experimenting with Camelot lately. It is still in its infancy, as you guys pointed out, but there is a feature I can’t do without now that I discovered it: controlling hardware synths as if they were plugins. I wish GP had this feature!
Hi Almuzura,
I think with scripting this can be easily done.
What is not so easy: Manage libraries of the Hardware.
I took a look at camelot also, and when you just use software, Gig Performer is much better - in my opinion.
Hello PianoPaul, thanks for your reply.
Having the possibility to control hardware synths as easily and quickly as Camelot would be so useful to me. I am a cruise ship musician and I get to work with different hardware all the time. On board, they usually have flagship synths and workstations by Roland, Kurzweil and Nord. Instead of using plugins all the time I would like to be able to use the built-in sounds of those beauties as well.
Thanks for pointing about the possibility of doing that via scripting, I will definitely check that out. Cheers
What kind of control do you want? Gig Performer doesn’t automatically know the names of the patches of hardware synths ( we haven’t gotten around to supporting the new Midi configuration stuff) but you can certainly create rackspaces (and song parts) that will automatically send the appropriate patch changes (including banks if needed) to external hardware so that when you switch songs, the external synths will be configured correctly. More complex control can be done with scripting as @pianopaul noted.
Something like Studio One’s Pipeline XT plugin for external h/w control?
No – I saw a demo of Camelot 2 years ago at NAMM during a meeting of the MMA. There’s a new specification in MIDI to allow an application to get the list of program names from a hardware synth and the list of available parameters for that synth so as to be able to send messages back from the application. Kinda cute but low priority for us — but as I said, you can control external synths from Gig Performer using patch changes to select sounds and you could associate widgets with sysex messages to control proprietary parameters as well. It’s a bit more work but doable.
And did the Camelot guys say Camelot makes use of this specification? I haven’t had of this yet. Are there already synths that can send out there patch names in thia format?
Camelot could also read the patch names / program numbers from my Motif XF, Rack XS and my Nord Stage 3 so they implemented (or add least created some kind of map for) the SysEx data being sent out from the synths (and the SysEx to start the dump). It’s pretty impressive if you haven’t seen this before but in fact it’s just reading the SysEx 
But switching presets is only one kind of “control”. Not sure if @Almuzura meant sending out program changes or some other kind of control too. (mixing? volume?)
I use program switching in GP with Nord Stage and Yamaha Motif quite often and it works really great. You only have to know which Bank Select MSB / LSB numbers the keyboard likes to receive to switch banks. Then GP sends the messages as soon as you change the values so that you instantly can see if your hardware synth reacts the way you want to.
If you’re using the Yamaga Montage or MODX there’s also a info screen that shows the PC and Bank Select numbers for the current performance. This makes it even easier to input the correct data in GP.
I use MIDI Out Blocks for that. But there’s also a very convenient way in the Song properties dialog.
Yes, that’s what they demoed at the MMA meeting and commented that they implemented it in two days so as you can imagine, when we get around to it, it won’t take us very long😀
There were a couple of modified keyboards from Yamaha and Roland being used for that demo but I’ve no idea if they’re in production yet.
Then you will have implemented it within two hours
Scotty!
Gig Performer is fantastic for controlling all your VSTs… but still lacks important support for External MIDI Synths IMO. But must say…GP’s routing view is awesome.
However, I myself, use an equal combination of both VSTs & External MIDI Synths for all my live performance songs and for both worlds… need to be easy for setting up complex splits, layers, program / bank changes, octaves, etc for each song.
I downloaded Camelot this week and find it extremely easy to use and a has great GUI. The BIG difference between GP & Camelot… is Camelot’s existing ability to easily control ALL your “External MIDI Synths” with Patch Name(s) & Bank organization already built in. Camelot already includes Patch/Bank support for many popular synths. If your synth is not in Camelot’s current list, you can create one for your synth from an existing INI file that you probably already have for your hardware synth for patch names & bank support.
“Auditioning” sounds (patches) quickly and easily is one the most important requirements for my particular use in creating complex splits, layers, octaves, ect. Sometime it takes awhile to find the perfect combination of sounds layered together for a certain song. With GP, if you already know the correct sound patch… that’s fine (just enter it and send), but if you don’t already know it…then, you are on the hunt for the perfect sound for that song. Just as you can do with your VSTs, Camelot lets you quickly audition & scroll through sounds (with Patch Names) for External MIDI Synths easily by using the UP & DOWN arrows on your computer keyboard and NOT having to use the mouse with GP… by clicking on tiny +/- icons (with NO Patch Names) each time you want to send out a program change to hear a single sound… or by having to turn a widget knob or slider to send out program changes to External MIDI Synths.
With that said, GP has some great features and flexibility primarily for VST users (but with limited External Synth support) and hopefully in the future GP has further capabilities in this area.
I am still evaluating & testing both before I make a final decision before committing… but I have to say as of now, Camelot has the edge but could change if I discover GP has equal Patch / Bank support for External MIDI Synths but so far, I have not found it.
Synthz
At this point, Gig Performer doesn’t know patch names etc. of external hardware so you have to know your way around the external synths but other than that you have full control over them. You can create widgets that send CC messages to external synths to control parameters, switch to different patches automatically as you switch rackspaces or songs, etc., and oh year, you can play them!
While I don’t carry any hardware synths any more (and boy has that made touring so much easier) I used to carry a Korg Kronos around which I used with Gig Performer. To be perfectly honest, it was never really that much of a deal to scroll through patches and/or combis on the Kronos directly and then set the bank and program change values in a Gig Performer Midi Out block (or in a Song Part) afterwards. I used to just leave Gig Performer’s global Midi Monitor running and as I scrolled the Kronos directly, it would send out bank and program change so you could immediately see them on the midi monitor.
So yeah, GP currently doesn’t help you pick sounds directly but it’s not like you can’t use your external synths in a show with GP, you absolutely can and many users do.
I checked out Camelot also, but at least the Demo was not running smooth, maybe my fault.
What I miss is something like scripting and OSC support and Rig Manager.
In my setup I often have to change my Midi Controller.
For me - but that is my special use case - scripting and OSC support is a live saver.
And the routing is not as flexible as in Gig Performer.
At least I did not find a way how to flexible route plugins.
Perhaps you could add a program change learn option to the MIDI out blocks ?
Appart regarding the patch list stuff, what is missing in GP for you ? With GP you can easily patch vst, hardware synth and even include non MIDI keyboard (Wurly, Rhodes, Hammond) in GP to make them benefit from vst FX. I really don’t see any limitations.
Good idea… but what should be learned and what should be done?
Given the example of @dhj who used the MIDI monitor to display and thus identify the last hardware synth program change, this could done during a PC learn phase in the MIDI out block plugin. When you stop learning the last PC transmitted is saved.
