My questions / concerns

General discussion about Gig Performer
1

Hello,

I have been reading online threads as well as watching as many YouTube videos of tutorials and possible uses of Gig performer. Am intrigued!

My main purpose to use Gig performer would be to perform live complete songs with my Electric Violin along with backing tracks with future purchase of a powerful Macbook laptop while using as much automation as possible with 3rd party plugins.

Using plugged-in Electric 1/4 inch cable Violin to UAD Apollo Twin and having automation done with the GP Streaming Audio File Player using Marker Points and Timeline Actions Tool. (all kinds of Rackspace configurations)

I would also be triggering MIDI with MIDI Guitar (standalone app) from my Electric Violin input which will generate MIDI notes and messages which will be picked up by Virtual Instrument plugins inside GP (Artuira, Kontakt etc) and be played back and automated in GP simultaneously.

-Please forgive if some of 1-4 are overlapping-

  1. Is this the best way to automate parameters and 3rd party plugins, (processing and Virtual Instruments), by using Marker Points and Timeline Actions Tool inside streaming audio player?

Any other way which can possibly incorporate Ableton Live which I own (and would yield more intuitive and not cause more latency?)

  1. It is VERY time consuming to script and program all the automations MIDI changes and all kinds of parameter changes inside GP Streaming Audio Player, and adding, creating widgets/knobs for so many commands. One needs to basically program at least 2-3 different commands for each change in plugin (so that it may go back to original state once desired automation is achieved and/or playback)

Doing all this scripting and programming can be very tedious and overwhelming, possibly killing inspiration and energy needed for performing live.

In the many threads and videos that I watched there doesnā€™t seem to be enough coverage on the automation topic. (I do realize automation is a fairly new concept in GP with Streaming Audio Player)

Forgive if I am not aware of other methods, I hope to learn from some of your suggestions.

  1. In future when I want to transfer a GIG file which contains all the plugin states and automations ā€¦and transfer it from one computer to another (possibly even having a different OS) ā€¦I saw online that there might be possible downfalls where not everything will be copied over, even if I have the same plugins and versions installed on both computers.

If the process of transferring Gig files around from one computer to another is bullet proof this can cause a LOT of wasting time and confusion.

  1. How can I use that same setup which I created in GP for performing live, later in the studio with Ableton live and down the road. Is there a simple way to transfer all my automations I did inside GP to Ableton Live so that I further tweak produce and mix the song? I would want to avoid just copying plugin preset states and automation I saved one by one from GP to Ableton and recreating the automation again in Ableton.

Are there any special and unique workflows for possibly doing thisā€¦ so that I can benefit after doing so much work creating all those automations with GP and using them for studio uses? (avoiding double the work)

I apologize for all these hardcore and long questions, worries and issues and appreciate any possible knowledge, insight, suggestions and ideas so that I can determine if GP is truly the right tool for what am trying to achieve.

Best regards with my utmost respect,
Energieswithin

2

Exactly what parameters do you want to be able to automate, and when? (during a song, changing songs, etc) ā€” how many parameters? Without understanding this in detail, itā€™s very difficult to answer this question

Many users use Ableton Live with Gig Performer and, depending on what theyā€™re doing, either GP or Live can be the master or the follower. Thereā€™s Ableton Link support and full OSC support in GP for communication. Again, depends on what youā€™re exactly trying to do.

Again, without understanding exactly what youā€™re trying to do here, itā€™s impossible to make suggestions. Why is it time consuming? What exactly are you automating, how often, etc?

Absolutely not - theyā€™re completely different! That saidā€¦

ā€¦just use the GP Relayer plugin and drive Ableton or another DAW directly from GP, where GP will continue to do the automations.

3

I thought I gave enough details and some of my questions are general based on the usage.

re: Exactly what parameters do you want to be able to automate, and when? (during a song, changing songs, etc)

Any Parameters using the Timeline Actions Tools. Especially during a song playback. A WAV file which I uploaded inside the Streaming Audio Player will be playing back and as I already mentioned will use Marker and Timeline Actions Tools to change settings for 3rd party plugins. (EQ change in frequency inside Helix Native Plugin, Volume change of a Virtual Instrumentā€¦changing rack spaces etc etc)

re: Many users use Ableton Live with Gig Performer

I donā€™t see a topic about automation of plugins from inside GP and how to use it with Ableton live if I already have uploaded the backing track WAV inside GP and trying to follow the playback and metronome from Ableton via link. Yes, I already have turned on Link for both GP and Ableton and can make it work. I would use Ableton for studio rehearsals and while I am still creating the songs in the studio, while I would not need to use Ableton when performing because of uploading backing track.

re: What exactly are you automating, how often, etc?

Already mentioned. If there is no way to draw automation, (like in a DAW) ā€¦to me it seems very time consuming scripting all those commands for every single change.

There isnā€™t enough info and tutorials on using Streaming Audio Player and automation within it.
Again (I did see the 8 minute YT intro video on that, but much more would be appreciated) , I mentioned that I already have searched and saw as much relative videos and threads.
Please provide some links that may help.
Also I havenā€™t received a reply regarding changing computers and having future proof of compatibility.

Thanks

4

When you mentioned automation, it was completely unclear that you meant prerecording or creating in advance continuous automation such as one might superimpose on a track in a DAW, e.g, to continuously change the volume or perhaps an effect such as reverb as the track plays.

No, it was not already mentioned. I didnā€™t see any reference to drawing automation in your original post.

Gig Performer does not support continuous automation (though thatā€™s an interesting idea for a future version) and youā€™re absolutely correct that it would be very time consuming to implement that kind of continuity.

Markers, which are placed on a timeline at discrete points are intended to trigger operations such as switching sounds, jump to a different rackspace or variation (which would change multiple parameters in one go), send program changes to external synths, change the page on a sheet music display, or perhaps trigger a video cue over OSC.

5

Useful threads:

Yes, it should fit.

6

Maybe it could be a viable approach if all the (continous) automation would be prepared in a ā€œrealā€ DAW like Ableton/Cubase/Logic Pro and saved as a midi fileā€¦ this midi file (using the middi file player) could then be played in sync to the actual acoustical backing track (using the SAFP).
That way you would have the same midi track for automation available in any DAW youā€™re about to use - in studio or live.

3 Likes
7

Thank you for the links, I appreciate it!
I will give GP a good try after purchasing it.

To me right now it seems a very steep learning curve because of all the work I have to put into it in order to try to achieve what I envision.
And yes, the automation and continuous automation is very important for music creation, studio and performing, more and more especially going forward in all types of music and approaches. It can make or break a song in my view.
If one spends more time in preparing for a live performance with all the tools needed (GP) than it takes to create music and do all the other zillion things that are required in the one-person-band with all the hats he/she has to wear it can really slow everything down to the point of being in the way instead of helping.

I suspect will run into issues down the road, in which case I will have to bug you guys again. (hopefully not)

8

Donā€™t worry, everything is very well documented.
Lots of useful tutorials are available: Gig Performer Resources

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9

Thank you for this brilliant idea!

two things regarding this that come to my mind:

  1. There doesnā€™t seem to be much info or tutorials online on how to do this, and if done, it may be a cumbersome process in experimenting with it
  2. Much of the automation I would be doing would require little latency (hopefully buffer 64-256) because of my instrument input (Electric Violin input to Line1 on UAD Apollo). This is where GP is useful and Ableton could be almost impossible to do if I stack different tracks with 3rd party plugins on the Violin track(s) and attempt to record the automations in MIDI, ā€¦this in Ableton would cause audio issues (glitches and dropouts) even if I have a very powerful computer. Therefore the automation would be really difficult to capture with the right kind of timing or even something close to it.

Please chime in, if I am mistaken in my thoughts or you may have a different process for obtaining it.
I do appreciate it!

10

To be fair, in the 7 or so years that GP is around, you are the first person to ask about continuous automation.

I am not sure I agree with this as a generalization. Clearly itā€™s very useful in the studio for mixing but the vast majority of live bands are not performing with backing tracks or timelines and so are not using continuous automation. I think your use case may be a bit of an outlier.

While we would love everyone in the world to buy GP, Iā€™m not sure youā€™re going to be happy with it if you have to do as much work as you say to get the equivalent of continuous automation.

11

re: While we would love everyone in the world to buy GP, Iā€™m not sure youā€™re going to be happy with it if you have to do as much work as you say to get the equivalent of continuous automation.

It has been obvious from the get-go that we donā€™t see too much eye to eye and you donā€™t seem open in actually helping customers and understanding their purpose for using GP. So far a few of your replies are just taking parts of my sentences and paragraphs and dancing them around.

We all may have different views on what live performances can be and if we just want to create friction and oppose one another rather than finding solutions or learn possibilities, it accomplishes nothing. I would rather focus on what we can accomplish here, in this community as well as knowledge.
My 2cents, Thanks!

12

To clarify and define the meaning of what may be confusing in our wording.
To me ā€˜continuous automationā€™ means simply similar to using a hardware floor guitar effects pedal while performing, and pressing the foot on it and changing its effects as one performs.
Instead of the physical effects floor pedal, automation is being done to Plugins (xyz) inside GP.
Obviously one may change effects many times during a performance within a song. (ex: more delay here, less reverb etc etc)
Surely I am not the only one who envisions this, just had to clarify the definition.

13

That is what variations within a rackspace are for.
You assign widgets to the parameters that would change, and each variation remembers the different widget settings for those parameters.

14

@edm11 already explained.

That is called HOST automation and is a basic discipline for gig performer.
Since version 1 of GP this is supported.

15

Sure, I understand this. (already read, saw enough tutorials as well as I was able to achieve this to a moderate degree in GP during my trial)
Although my point and question was how to find it easier and less time consuming. (one cannot draw automation inside GP which is so simple to do in a DAW)
I see now that there isnā€™t another way. Thanks anyway for your replies.

16

It would depend on how many things were being changed at once.
If I wanted 5 parameter changes for different plugins simultaneously, I would adjust the 5 widgets for that variation and then later i would merely need to recall that variation to have all 5 of those parameters change.

In a DAW I would have to create 5 different lanes of automation for those changes, and then copy/paste those changes in every section I wanted those changes to occur. I donā€™t see that as being less time consuming.

If youā€™re wanting continuous automation where the values of parameters are constantly moving and in flux, then DAW automation has its advantages.

For my own usage, I use an external app for my looping that has a timeline, and I use Gig Performer for hosting all of my plugins ā€“ the infrastructure for all my songs and song parts, the rackspaces and variations, and multiple instances for various instrument groups. This is what GP does better than any other app. In the other app, I merely send OSC and/or MIDI messages back to GP to make the appropriate changes at the assigned points on the timeline. Each app gets to do what it does best.

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17

This is not supported.
But you can do as this tip.

1 Like
18

This tip is beyond me, of how to do it, but thanks for suggesting it, maybe one day I will get to doing it.

19

Thank you, I appreciate your insight, example and knowledge regarding this!

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20

With respect, if we were not open to helping customers, we would hardly be spending time responding :slight_smile:

No, not true - it simply took me a while to figure out what you meant by automation and I had to keep asking. Thereā€™s quite a bit of confusion around the term ā€œautomationā€ and it did not become clear until much later that you were essentially talking about predefined continuous control of parameters as opposed to what GP currently supports which includes:

  • discrete control of parameters at explicit points in the timeline
  • programmable shapes via the use of GP Script.
  • real-time automation which is essentially the use of a foot pedal as you mentioned

All of those things come under the auspices of host automation.

Indeed. And my point at the time was that to date, the requirement for predefined parameter controlled has not come up as most bands that play live are controlling parameters in real-time with foot pedals and knobs and sliders as they play. Your need for drawing (or prerecording) an automation ā€œtrackā€ over an audio track has already been put into our feature tracking system, itā€™s an intriguing option for a future version.

Again, you misunderstand where I was coming from. Gig Performer costs a significant amount of money and I wanted to make sure that you donā€™t spend your hard-earned money only to find that the product does not address your needs. I would consider that as caring very much about helping customers make the right decision.

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