Sane/Realistic Limits to Live Pre-Monitor Plugins?

I’m still slowly building up my kit and continuing to agonize over what ought to lie at the end of the roadmap.

I’d love to know… who out there is using Gig Performer and computer hardware to its utmost, spending big to max out the hardware possibilities, and monitoring post-GP? Where are the sane, sobering limits of a single PC for hosting such a setup?

My setup currently involves three instances of GP on separate computers, and I am trying to decide whether I need a fourth, or whether I might consolidate the system to use as few as two.

Currently:

  1. A ‘Show Control’ mac, which receives song selection commands, calls up presets on the other computers/instances, manages midi signal flow, lighting automation, and provides clicks, tracks, and an automated looper for all band members. (This will always remain separate, as it can be set up with lots of buffering and latency without affecting performance… (no “real-time” processing goes on here.)

  2. A ‘Synths’ PC which handles synth patches for me (2ch Stereo ‘Synth’ plus 2ch stereo “Bass Synth Buss” for the FOH guy’s control if present) as well as for the other band members (4 additional channels as two stereo pairs.) This is an old tower PC I was gifted. (i7-2600 w/ 32GB DDR3 RAM at 1600MHz) I’m pushing the limits of this machine, even though I use physical-modelling plugins wherever possible. However, there is an additional major limiting factor in that I’m using Dante Virtual Soundcard as my audio interface. This requires me to keep the latency buffers extremely low, as DVS already adds 6ms-10ms or more of latency to my pre-monitor feed.

  3. A ‘Drums’ PC running MODO Drums and a Sampler plugin. (i7-3770 w/ 32GB DDR3 RAM at 1660) This also uses DVS as an audio interface, but processor/RAM demands are much more reasonable… has not been a big problem thus far

In the works:

  1. I want to add vocal and guitar(s) processing strips. These would include

-4x full-featured vocal strips (gate> mild pre-compression> subtractive EQ> de-ess> Transducer/Exciter> multiband compressor> tuner/harmonizer> ambience) the output of which would feed the board (pre-monitor), as well as supply the formant feed for guitar/keyboard part vocoders.

-4x Guitar strips: One for post-pedalboard compression>impulse response/cabinet emulation/mono>stereo for guitar, One similar track for a bass, and another pair for full pedalboard processing of Bass or Guitar or (2-channel) Chapman Stick, as the song demands. Typically only two of these channels would be used simultaneously. (One bass and one guitar) unless I’m playing stick (One guitar and Stereo stick) The non-bass tracks would also have vocoding available via the vocal feeds. Again, this is all pre-monitoring.

There are some slight efficiencies to be gained by consolidating all of this. For example, the formant feeds would exhibit less latency if they were to avoid a trip via audio interface. I will only be playing one instrument during a given song (Synths, Bass, Guitar, or Stick,) so a monolithic approach would never need to process those paths simultaneously. The same goes for my lead guitarist, who would play guitar, bass, or synth; never more than one at a time. (Although a potential added member would require doing more parallel work.) Drums and Vocals are typically required at all times.

Given the above, should I hold out any hope that instances #2, #3, and #4 might be possible on a single machine? What about a maxed-out Mac Mini or (to take my ludicrous plans even further beyond reason) a bottom-of-the-line Mac Pro? Are there rules of thumb for figuring out how much additional function I’d gain by purchasing current hardware?

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Puh, sounds like a bit heavy…

Why do you need Dante already in your PCs?

From a first view (and without knowing the things behind your PC collection) I would go on a single machine for #2-#4 and work with GP instances to optimize #2, #3, #4 - I would even put parts of #4 on a remote controlled digital mixer. From here you could go for monitoring and/or feed a Dante link…

Just first thoughts…

BBB

Thanks for the response

Dante helps keep our setup and strike times down by limiting the amount of cabling on stage. It also allows for flexibility in the number of inputs and outputs utilized by each pc. (Rather than purchasing multiple hardware audio interfaces with fixed I/o) and keeps the overall weight of my rig down. I had things working rather well previously using a rack-hardware approach, but my mixer-top road case ended up weighing almost 200lbs… and then we got a recurring gig with a steep, narrow flight of 30 stairs and no elevator… ugh. Rather than choose between making dozens of connections before and after each show; or having dozens of connections pre-patched in a rack I cannot lift… I went the Dante route.

I had tried to make use of instances as you suggested. At the time, I had only a single Windows 10 tower PC to work with, and found Windows 10 to be a frustrating experience: one instance grabs control of the audio and midi I/O, requiring a dedicated master routing layer, loopback midi (which adds a surprising amount of latency), and audio bussing software. I was able to make this work, but it required delicate balancing and troubleshooting which weren’t conducive to quick setup at gigs.

That said, the used Mac Mini I picked up as the “show control” pc was much easier to work with; thus my questions about specifically Apple hardware. If I had some idea of the “max capacity” of a single Mac mini, I’d head in this direction. OR, I bite the bullet, drop $5k on a tricked-out Mac mini with a Sonnet racked thunderbolt PCIe enclosure and Dante card, and migrate as much function as possible to my new machine… but I’d need to plan and save for quite a long time, and after such an investment, I’d be pretty bitter if I found the results restricting.

I do have a digital mixer (x32 Producer,) but its internal effects are limited to a single internal insert effect per channel, which has been frustrating. It is also limited to 6 mono hardware inserts. Processing pre-monitor seems to be the only way to achieve what I’m looking for. (I could have gone Waves Multirack, but this seemed to lack comprehensive software instrument support.) I’ve been gravitating away from automating the x32 and leaving it more and more as a tool for FOH.

My last Dante experiences are a few years back. But I’m wondering about the high latencies of the DVS about 6-10ms - do you mean output latency or roundtrip? Is your complete network GigaBit? What’s the Clock Master in your system? Did you already optimize your setup (latency, channel bundling etc.) There is some good training material from Audinate available! e.g. https://youtu.be/HFL9CgrSUSE and the associated video playlist!

About MIDI latency. I have no experience on the windows side, on the macOS side I had no issues with the IAC drivers so far - they work like a charm!

BBB

My last Dante experiences are a few years back. But I’m wondering about the high latencies of the DVS about 6-10ms - do you mean output latency or roundtrip?

Output latency of 4ms-6ms plus cumulative latency of the rest of my signal path: MIDI Controller>BOME box (DIN)>Bome Network MIDI Pro> LAN> Bome Network MIDI Pro> Gig Performer Virtual Instrument (Audio buffer of 128 frames @ 48kHz) > DVS (Output latency set at the minimum of 4ms) > Network > x32/X-Dante (Can handle down to 0.25ms minimum latency) > Ultranet ( P16 Monitoring System - published >1ms latency )

The Bome network should be operating in the tenths of milliseconds. DVS has higher selectable minimum latency values than any of the other elements (4ms, 6ms, or 10ms - in every case accounting for at least half of the acceptable total latency) and the gig performer buffering value seems to be the next-largest culprit. I believe I set DVS latency at 4ms and Gig Performer buffer at 128 frames and adjust upward when I hear clicks. Cumulative latency on this signal path is noticeable but not impossible to work with. I’d guess I’m dealing with 10ms-12ms currently.

Is your complete network GigaBit?

Yes, all gigabit.

What’s the Clock Master in your system?

The x32 producer’s X-DANTE card

Did you already optimize your setup (latency, channel bundling etc.) There is some good training material from Audinate available! e.g. https://youtu.be/HFL9CgrSUSE and the associated video playlist!

Thank you! I’ll check it out. (I have read up on latency, but haven’t researched channel bundling.)

About MIDI latency. I have no experience on the windows side, on the macOS side I had no issues with the IAC drivers so far - they work like a charm!

The macOS IAC drivers are awesome. I prefer Mac in all things music… but I prefer FREE even more than Mac. :slight_smile: I’m stuck with my free Windows 10 towers for the time being.

Thanks again!

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