Reset on Rackspace (AND SONG?) Activation

General discussion about Gig Performer
1

Here is a scenario that can be problematic…

I’m in a Song Part. It is mapped to a given Rackspace and Variation. There is a Widget that Ignores Variations, and Also Resets on Rackspace Activation.

I adjust that Widget’s value, either in the Setlist View, or in the Panel View. For example, something was too quiet, so I push the fader to “11”.

I then go to a different Song that happens to use the same Rackspace. Instead of going to my moderate, “Reset on Rackspace Activation” value, I get “11”.

I think that the feature is implemented as described. Since I didn’t activate the Rackspace, the Widget didn’t reset. But because I’ve chosen a new Song, I probably didn’t want the adjustment from the previous Song. If I wanted something to persist across songs, I would use the Global Rackspace.

Note that this doesn’t happen when “Ignore Variations” is not selected, even when the same Variation is used in the next Song.

I’ve attached a Gig that shows the situation.
ResetOnRackspaceActivation.gig (249.0 KB)

2

I guess the “capture variation” function in the setlist view could be what you’re looking for… it’s well documented in the manual:

3

No, this is the opposite case.

I was playing around in Song 1, but I didn’t want it saved. It was a temporary adjustment.

I go to Song 2, but the sound is wrong. I’m probably not aware that I’m using the same rackspace as before, since this was just a coincidence.

I use “Reset on Rackspace Activation” as a failsafe, so that I will get no surprises, but here I have a surprise.

Also, there is an inconsistency. In the gig file and example I provided, neither the rackspace or variation changes. The Widget that Ignored Variations persisted with my temporary change across songs. The Widget that did not ignore Variations did not persist with the temporary change.

I believe that the correct behavior is to use the “Reset” value when changing songs, even if the Rackspace did not happen to change. The last thing I want is for a temporary experiment to affect the next Song in my performance.

(BTW, the tip about capturing variation edits is nice. I had forgotten about that feature. It will be useful. But also, I don’t want it to affect the following song.)

4

I tried the Capture Variation Into This Part feature, and it works for the Widget that does not ignore Variations, but does not save the adjustment of the Widget that Ignores Variations. This is implemented as described, but it’s not exactly what I would like.

Let’s say that I have a fader for guitar and another for my backing tracks. The guitar level changes between the verse chorus and solo, but I don’t want my backing track levels to change across the song. In this case, I will have the backing track fader ignore variations and the guitar fader will not ignore variations.

In both cases, I will enable Also Reset on Rackspace Activation, so that I will be guaranteed not to mess up my settings when I next play the song - even if I save the gig. I could use the “Lock” feature, but I might want to experiment temporarily with different levels.

Let’s say that I like this new experimental value. I would then Edit the Panel and save the new reset values. Or… I might hit the Save button in the upper right corner.

In both cases, the guitar fader will behave as expected. but my backing track fader (that ignores variations) might not. When the next Song uses the same Rackspace, that Song would start with the temporary value. But the next day, when I go back to the first song, the “Save” button in the upper right did not save the level of the backing track fader.

Based on the technical descriptions, the software is acting as advertised. That said, a musician doesn’t look at a fader and think “this one changes with variations and this other one ignores variations.” To the performing musician, they are just faders. When you go to the next Song, they should both go to their Reset value. When you hit the Save button in the upper right, they should both be saved.

Of course, the software programmer knows that they need to be handled differently, and to make them appear to the musician consistently, the code might be difficult. But to the user, a fader is just a fader and they should work consistently (except that one ignores variations within a Song and the other doesn’t.)

5

I finally had the time to crawl through your example & explanation in detail and i think/guess/hope i understand the problem now…
The thing is: All the widget settings for “reset on rackspace activation” and “ignore variations” are rackspace & panel oriented, but you would like to override these settings from your setlist/songparts.
This works as long as no change of an underlying rackspace is made, because then the “rackspace rules” will take place and therefore that widget is reset, as specified.
So, if you use the setlist and songparts anyway and you have the “capture variation” tool at hand (which is not rackspace- but songpart-oriented), why not completely ditch that “ignore variations” and “reset on activate” stuff, and instead use an individual “capture snapshot” for each songpart? Just a thought…

1 Like
6

Yep, I lean heavily on the “capture snapshot” tool. It really gives you the control you need over each song part. Great!

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7

Thank you, schamass, for your consideration.

Ignore Variations is an important feature for me. There are controls that don’t change per variation, such as mix levels. If I want to adjust it by 2 dB, I don’t want to have to Edit Panel and copy and paste it to every variation.

The key point is that when going to a new Song, Gig Performer always acts as if the variation changed (even if it didn’t), which I believe is correct. It does not act as if the Rackspace changed, which I believe is problematic.

When I go to a new Song, my performance should always be like I rehearsed it. It should never carry over an artifact from a temporary adjustment done previously in a different song.

8

I’m with @schamass and @jeffn1 when it comes to “capture snapshot”.

Just had a gig with a trio, where one of the last things we did was walk through the whole setlist, adjusting minor details on different song parts and use “capture snapshot”.

9

Note that Capture Snapshot doesn’t work on Widgets that Ignore Variations. (Personally, I think Capture Snapshot should capture the value for such Widgets across the Song.)

The current hint says, “Capture variation into this part.” A better feature would be to “Capture Widget Values into this Part/Song.” Then, when I return to the Song, I get exactly what I played last.

Of course, the Widgets that Ignore Variations will stay the same across all Song Parts. The other Widgets might change during the other parts.

Frankly, the Ignore Variations feature is problematic. I’ve experienced some unexpected behavior in Gig Performer over the years, and I now believe that it’s because Ignore Variations makes things somewhat inconsistent or non-deterministic. When I take a Snapshot, I want the whole snapshot. When I select a new Song to perform, I want it to sound just like it did during rehearsal, not different because I nudged a controller in the same Rackspace before I selected the next song.

But I really like the feature. Some things shouldn’t change with variations, and I don’t want to have to copy/paste their values across all Variations/Parts just to raise my backing track by 1dB for a given song.

10

So let’s consider that for a moment — suppose Capture Snapshot did capture widgets that ignore variations. Then when you have different parts, all using the same rackspace, and you explicitly change a widget that “Ignores” variations and then capture again, when you switch from one part to another, you would be changing the values of widgets that are supposed to ignore variation changes.

Is that what you want?

11

Thanks for the consideration.

That’s not what I would want. A Widget that ignores Song Parts should continue to ignore Song Parts. I’d like the new value to be stored for all times that the Song with the snapshot uses that Rackspace.

Here’s a scenario: I have a Rackspace with a full-featured Panel for a guitar amp with many Widgets. (Note that I typically use one Rackspace per Song, but I might reuse it in a similar Song.) To start, I set all Widgets to Ignore Variations. I now adjust my tone and effects for the foundation. I want a phaser during the chorus and a distortion pedal with a small boost during the solo. I set that up with only the particular Widgets that change responding to Variations. Maybe I also have a vocal chain with fixed gain and a backing track. Any Widgets for vocals and backing track ignore variations.

Now, when refining my song, I can finesse my foundational sounds (amp, vocals, and backing track) without having to copy and save those settings across multiple Variations.

Now, let’s say I create a second Song that uses the same Rackspace, but the backing track is a bit low. I’m in Setlist View and I raise the volume of the backing track and Capture Snapshot.

I would like that higher backing track level to be as captured at any time that I use that Rackspace in that Song. I don’t want the backing track to go to the previous level from the Rackspace; I want it across the whole Song.

Keep in mind that in Setlist View, a Widget is just a Widget. There is no asterisk for Widgets that Ignore Variations. The checkbox doesn’t say “Ignore Snapshots.”

In my mind, Variations and Song Parts are at the same level, and Rackspaces and Songs are at the same level. They are separated so that we can reuse resources. So the Snapshot tool should capture Variations at the Song Part level, and it should captire Rackspace-level items (Ignore Variations) at the Song level.

12

I’m not quite sure if I’ve understood you correctly. But would it solve your problem if there were not only the option “Reset on Rackspace Activation” in the widget properties, but also something like “Reset on Variation Activation”?

13

There are two issues. The first is a bit of a corner case, where you are in the Setlist View in Song 1 and you twiddle a knob (or accidentally bump a MIDI control). Then you go to another Song. On the off-chance that it uses the same Rackspace, you will start that song with the changed value, rather than the one you had when you rehearsed. Surprise! So, in this case, we want it to Reset on Rackspace Activation OR SONG CHANGE.

Widgets that change on Variations don’t have this issue - even when the next Song uses the previous Rackspace and Variation. So, I think this can be fixed behind the scenes. Just treat a Song change as a Rackspace change, at least for all Widgets with this option enabled.

The second issue is the snapshot topic, where some widgets have their state saved and others do not, depending on if Ignore Variations is enabled.

14

Why doesn’t this work for you?

screenshot_8227

15

That’s exactly what I’ve been using.

Check out the example gig at the top. If I’m in Song 1 and adjust that Widget (maybe as a temporary experiment, and maybe by accident), then when i go to Song 2, if it happens use the same Rackspace, I will get that unwanted value. I enable Also Reset on Rackspace Activation to ensure that things are 100% predictable, and i was surprised that this doesn’t get reset on Song changes.

And, as discussed, when Ignore Variations is checked, it is also ignored in Setlist Snapshots.

16

So why not just duplicate that rackspace?

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17

Yes, duplicating the Rackspace would 100% avoid the problem, but it’s a workaround. Until this week, I had no idea that the problem could occur. I just knew that every once in a while, things came up wrong.

Sharing rackspaces has the benefit of faster load times, and if I improve the rackspace (like with a better panel), all of those songs get the upgrade. I’m now building a multi-instance setup where reuse will be an important feature.

My near-term solution is now to avoid Ignore Variations and Also Reset on Rackspace Activation. I have some additional ideas of how to make things totally foolproof - both with Gig designs and my process. It should work well. the only downside will be when I want a control to keep its settings across variations. I’ll need to copy/paste the setttings across variations when I make tweaks, but that’s okay. I’ll gain the Snapshot feature across all Widgets.

Anyway, give some thought to how these features might be improved in the future. I’ve got a plan that will work well for the next evolution of my gig designs.