Hello all, I have a 404hd and find the output very weak - nowhere near the +4dbu listed in the specs, probably not even -10. I have to run it through an additional mixer if I need the full volume from my speakers. I’ve been thinking about upgrading to an 1820 while they’re at such a good price, but wondering if the 1820 has the same issue?
I think there’s a few 1820 owners here and at least one with experience of both.
More generally any suggestions for a better, smaller way to boost 2 channels of volume than a 19"x19" mixer?
The 404HD was my main interface for 18 months, then the 1820 for another year, and never had that problem. If anything, it jacked the signal enough that there was some distortion noticeable at the full volume setting and the reason I upgraded from that. If I was having (and still have on occasions) volume issues, from experience I usually find the cause in one of my Windows audio settings. For Mac, no idea.
Maybe run a MONO signal through it to see if it makes a difference. Or maybe run one of the channels through a phase inverter in case the channels are partially cancelling each other out.
I checked through every software and driver setting I could find (win 10) and there was nothing out of place. I’ll do a bit more testing when time permits, but I don’t think it’s a phase issue - my check yesterday was mono.
A bit of googling suggests low output is a somewhat common complaint on 404s. In any case, If the 1820 is comparable to the scarlet, it’s output is presumably in the typical range.
It’s currently an irritation rather than an actual problem. I’ve generally got volume to spare, and getting a small mini mixer to keep in the bag isn’t a big deal if I ever need the extra.
Anyway, thanks for the responses, I’ll probably grab an 1820, there’s just nothing close for I/O in the price range.
@ Megatrousers I have 2 404HDs, a 202, and an 1820. The only time I have had issues with getting full signal to the amps is when I am not using the UMC ASIO drivers. All 3 are very similar and use much the same equipment inside except that the 1820 has limitations on the bits/sec due most likely to the fact that it is trying to send so much data through an older USB port. It drops even further when you pair it with the ADAT.
Besides the making sure you are using UMC ASIO, make sure you are using the highest version of USB your computer supports. Most Windows machines have different version support on different ports. Make sure you have it plugged in to the best one.
Interesting - when I got the 404 a few years ago I had to keep it on USB2.0, otherwise there were constant driver issues, but the driver (I’m using the ASIO driver) seems to have improved to the point where I can’t remember the last time it caused a problem, so I’ll give it a try on a better port.
I’m starting to think I’ve just misunderstood something or made some silly mistake. Going to do a more controlled test and compare against a different interface - hopefully in the next couple of days. I’ll post whatever I find out.
I have two of them - one in my live rig and one on my office desk for doing sound development. I been been incredibly happy with them.
One thing that tripped me up at the beginning is the mix knob. I think the “PB” stands for playback. Unless you need direct input monitoring, make sure that mix knob is all the way to the PB side.
@ Sternen I forgot about the mix. I don’t really use it anymore.
@ Megatrousers If you use the line out plugs instead of the main plugs, you will get max out level. The main outputs are subject to the mix knob which balances between the mic/line inputs and the computer playback inputs.
I stopped using mains because I need all four outputs going to the band’s mixer. And I also don’t want to risk a mic input getting passed directly to the mixer by accidentally changing the “mix”.
If you use the 1820, it has a mix knob as well as a main output level knob.
I am attaching the internal signal path diagram for the Behringer UMC404HD which I have found quite useful in visualizing exactly how it works, adjusted and possible use cases. The 1820 is almost identical, just more inputs and outputs. Hope someone else finds this useful as well.
Did some testing Today.
Only thing I have to hand to test against is a Boss GT-100 Multi-FX, but it’s a functional usb interface and helpfully has +4/-10 output selection.
In summary:
A ~0db output from GP ran through each interface into an analogue mixer.
Mix knob on 404 all the way to playback, output knobs on both interfaces at max.
Using each manufacturer’s respective ASIO drivers.
Tried xlr, trs balanced, ts unbalanced cables, main outs, line outs, usb2 and usb3 port connection, and both usb power and mains power with the 404.
In all cases, the 404s pre-fader level on the mixer was approx -10db.
With the boss in +4 output mode, its levels hit 0db, while in -10 mode, it was about the same as the 404.
Maybe I just have a dud unit - it hasn’t caused me any practical problems though and I’m overall very happy with it - didn’t really mean to start a troubleshooting thread. Might be interesting to see what others get with a similar test though.
@ Megatrousers There is something else you might check. The UMC Control Panet has volume controls. The Master is functionally tied to the windows sound control panel master as well as the system tray speaker volume. Changing one changes the others. But this individual Out # sliders are specific to the UMC ASIO drivers. They could be lower than 0 and it wouldn’t impact your Boss drivers. It could be effectively padding your output on the 404.
Hey @_wo1f that was looking promising for a bit - when I went to my UMC control panel, it didn’t have a volume tab. I rolled the driver back from 5.57 to 5.3, which let me access that tab - but, everything is at 0db and output to the mixer remains the same as before.
At this point I’m inclined to think this is simply the nature of the unit. It’s only a potential issue if I (or who-ever) wanted to:
dispense with their mixer AND
needed that last 10db from their speakers
For me, 1 would be nice since all my mixing is handled in GP, but 2 is such an unlikely requirement I don’t much care. Still, if anyone has other suggestions, I’ll try them.
If you ever have time (and something to measure with) @_wo1f it might be interesting to check what levels both units (404hd/1820) are actually putting out. If I get an 1820 I’ll do so myself and post the results here.
I wonder if your mixer uses balanced or unbalanced inputs. I think if you send a balanced output to an unbalanced input you will only get 1/2 of the signal. I read some consumer products send a colder signal than high end commercial products.
Also if the source impedance doesn’t match the destination impedance the output device may load the source signal causing a lower signal level.
I couldn’t see anything about output impedance of the connectors of the UMC404HD.
That depends on the design of the balanced output. Some of the designs is to have the inverted signal on second wire. In that case you indeed only get 1/2 the signal. But there are many designs that just have the ground connected to it or a fixed voltage (probably with a capacitor in series).
At first that sounds strange, but the reason for balancing outputs is to have balanced inputs and reason for balanced inputs is noise cancellation. At the input it only matters that the noise picked up by the cable is also separately fed into the inverted input. Then y + +(x) + -(x) == y, (where x is the noise, and y is the signal). So as long the input is balanced and the cable is two wires in one shield, the noise canceling works.
Some of you may have seen it before, but this is a detailed user review of the 404hd. Among many other technical details, he mentions the balanced outs are the ground terminated type. It also laments low output levels.
Finally had an opportunity to tear down my studio set up and do some testing. I have:
UMC202HD
UMC404HD
UMC1820
Running all 3 into the same analog mixer with a meter, using balanced line outputs, not using the mic/line mix outputs, running the input mixer’s gain all the way down and volume slider at 0 (unity) for all 3, with all 3 set at 96k, and playing the same song on each, same music player software and volume set at 100% on all 3. That’s the best I can do for testing without a tone generator and scope.
I do see some differences. It does appear meter readings on the 202 and 404 are 9 to 10 db lower than the 1820. In addition, the noise levels on the 202 and 404 are a little higher.
So, there is absolutely a difference. I can compensate for the level difference in my downstream mixer. Signal to noise ratio is still really good on the 202 and 404. I can’t really discern any sound quality difference. That difference may be important in a studio. I’m going to say use in a live really depends on how many channels I/O you need. I really don’t think you will run into many live listeners that can tell the difference.
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