Kronos user new to Gig Performer and VST in general

Plugins
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Hello - I just joined the forum after learning about gig performer and seeing some of the videos.

I’m a software developer (using a mac) during the day and in my off hours, I’m a gigging musician in two cover bands. For the past couple years I’ve been gigging with a Nord 88 on the bottom and a Korg Kronos 61 on top. The Korg is used to cover several 80s songs using a lot of commercial patches (Audora, NarfSounds, bbkeySounds) which are pretty accurate.

The reason I’m here is because the Kronos is exhibiting some hardware problems which has started manifesting at gigs (losing the usb midi connection so it can’t change patches, and suddenly lowering the sound output, which requires a reboot to fix). That and the fact that Korg no longer sells the Kronos and doesn’t seem to have a worthy replacement - has led me to looking seriously at taking a VST approach to replace it.

For the first phase I’m looking to just replace the Korg and will continue to use my Nord. I use a key largo as a mixer and that supports USB-based audio output which can be mixed in and sent out so that’s one option. I also have a scarlett i4i available, not sure if that would be a better alternative. I use ForScore on my iPad to manage the set lists across both bands - it sends out midi program change commands to all my keyboards as songs are selected. I plan on continuing to use that and have it select gigPerformer songs that way (similar to what I saw someone else do with band helper)

I worked with sweetwater and now have a Keylab 61 MKII for a controller. I also got the Arturia collection 9, Korg collection + Wavestate - which should cover my 80s synth needs in theory. I’ve ordered a beefy mac mini (M2 pro, 32GB ram, 4TB SDD) which will be used as a dedicated VST box. Eventually I’ll look at rack mounting the mac mini into a portable rack with the other hardware (wifi router?, usb hub?) and cables I’ll need to connect into my controller/keylargo.

Until that gets here I’ve been playing around with mac-based options using my work M1-based macbook pro. I put together a few patches with main stage but found some show stopping stability problems which led me here.

Right now I’m feeling a little overwhelmed, I’ve been watching several videos about using gig performer and I’m starting at the basics of just trying to bring in some sounds that I need. I’ve heard that some people have taken a sampling approach, capturing patches from the original device.

Since the Korg mostly provides synth sounds, It seems the many synths available to me in the two collections I have should be able to give me what I need. I just don’t know if there are already preset patches already available for known sounds, or how hard it would be to recreate them using the Korg defaults as a guide. For example the wavestation Hd1 patches on the Korg should be able to be created pretty closely on the WaveState. The MS20 sounds should just map directly, and the subtractive synth sounds could just be created -but it would be time consuming. In the long run would it be less taxing to use the virutal synth vs creating a bunch of sampled sound files? I’m not even sure what my options are for grabbing the samples and playing them back from gig performer. I presume I’ll need one or more plugins to do that?

In watching the videos, I’ve seen Kontakt used a lot when creating patches. I think I want to get that eventually, but don’t know how soon or which version - seems like a lot of the people in the videos are using the Komplete Ultimate, which is a little pricey atm.

I guess I’m looking for advice from others who have gone through a similar process of migrating from a Korg Kronos into gig performer panels/songs.

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Hello,

There are so many ways to approach GP. I use set list mode, which connects songs to rackspaces and variations.

So, I suppose, the process would be to create rackspaces the cover the sounds you use on your Korg.

I am sort of a neanderthal in finding synth sounds. I have V Collection and Syntronik 2. In some ways, I find Syntronik 2 easier to use, even though V Collection sounds load immediately (maybe because I need to get more presents for V Collection). Basically, I do some research to find synths used but I often just tryout sound after sound until I feel close and then try tweaking parameters seeing what gets closer (I am no sound designer).

I think Kontakt (now 7) is pretty essential because it allows you to use so many sample libraries by other developers.

I think NeoSoundstation is a great “bread and butter” resource for only $30.00

You probably need to look at the sounds you use on your Kronos and think of replacements. I like Sessions Horns for horn sections (not even the Pro version).

The VI Control Net forum is great, with a lot of musicians (mostly composers) who know their sample libraries: VI-CONTROL

So, you might want to explore there, especially in selecting sample libraries to cover “real” instruments.

For better or worse, if you can wait till sales, there is a big difference in what you will pay for VST instruments/sample libraries.

I hope this helps a bit.

Jeff

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Welcome!

I think that you left a similar remark on one of Youtube videos.

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Hi Darren, welcome to the community!

I have gone through the process of replacing a bunch of Kronos sounds with VSTs myself and am now gigging with GigPerformer fuily replacing my Mk1 Kronos 73. I was also using some Narf and Audora sounds. I have found that any Kronos sounds that were using its MS20 or PolySix type engines can be pretty accurately recreated using the equivalents in Korg Collection, which I see you already own. The rest of mine have been mostly replaced with Arturia V-Collection sounds plus PianoTeq & Lounge Lizard in my instance as I had the Kronos 73 and used it for my piano sounds whereas it seems you were likely the other way around using your Nord for piano/B3 duties.

I currently have the old Legacy Korg Collection and have found that Korg Gadget plugins for Windows have been a cheaper route to getting the Korg sounds than updating my Korg Collection to the latest version. I probably won’t upgrade my Korg Collection until they include a plugin that does at least the HD-1 engine from the Oasys/Kronos/Nautilus line. There are still a few Kronos sounds I used that I really miss and haven’t yet replaced to my full satisfaction - I may end up auto-sampling them.

For ready-made signature sounds, check out the Arturia Sounds page, as there are some really good “artist tribute” options in there - https://www.arturia.com/sounds.

Also checkout the 3rd party Legends sound pack for Arturia OB-Xa V - https://reverbmachine.com/sounds/legends-arturia-ob-xa-presets/

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Hi Jeff,

Thanks for responding. I guess I’ll have to bite the bullet and look into Kontakt. I heard a youtube example using the brass sounds for freeze frame and was blown away, so that would be a big step up from the Kronos. I lucked out with the Arturia library which was on sale at Sweetwater for half off this week, but these libraries can add up fast, so I don’t want to overbuy right away.

I’ll look at VI-Control as well. I’ve already found one library of retro sounds that may work for a couple songs in my setlists. I’ve got a gig tonight, but will spend the weekend deep diving into gig performer and patch creation.

Thanks

Darren

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Yes, if you are in the position you can be patient, you can pick up what you want/need at much better prices. In some cases (Kontakt and Komplete) there is a specific schedule.

Oh, and many times you can pick up transferred licenses (totally legit and apparently mandated by EU law) for great prices. Look at VI Control and k-v-r marketplace forum. (I have not had any bad experiences with that). (On the other hand, I would not touch any cracked software).

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It seems our journey is very similar, I also had a Korg Kronos and now using Gig Performer.

I did not know anything (or barely) about VSTs, let alone VST Hosts.

Because I did not have a real clue what sounds would be good enough to compare to Korg Kronos sounds, I bought NI Komplete 11 (not Ultimate) while it was at reduction price (of E 381). But I found later there are also many free VST sounds which are very usable. But still I’m glad I bought the NI bundle. I’'m sure the Arturia bundle is likewise useful.

Initially I used a kind of hierarchical way, like using small audio mixers (inside GP) to connect stacked sounds together. This shows very good on GP and is very easy to draw in GP, and also very flexible.

But later, as I wanted to change the volumes during rehearsals to rebalance the sounds, it was easier to use a 16 (or 32) channel mixer like on the Kronos (16 channel stereo).

To assign the sliders to it, I created a panel and copied it to every rackspace/song I’m using. However, as I wanted to add more functionality, I’m creating some kind of ’ prefixed’ panel so I don’t have to copy that.

It’s also good to look at examples (see shared rackspaces) what other people did, and look at all the videos on the GP site.

After some initial learning curve, I like the GP/VST way much better than Kronos, which is (in my opinion) a bit of dead end, as the Nautilus is not on par with the Kronos, and the VST possibilities and the flexibility of GP is a big step forward compared to the fixed Kronos with ’ only ’ 9 engines and 16 channels.

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After a few days of playing with gig performer, I think I’m getting a good handle on it.

I’ve created 8 rack spaces so far covering the 8 songs with Korg parts from one set list. I adapted the template shared by Brett for the “How to create a complete setlist in 1 hour” video to use with my rig, hooking the faders up to my physical controller.

I implemented an idea shared by Matt in a video by adding shared chorus, reverb & delay plugins to the global rack and adding faders to control them to the template used for front panels.

I’ve got the global midi program change from ipad over the network working, and took a tip from David to wire up some buttons on the physical controller to advance to the next page and next song on the ipad.

I’m loving the classic synths available in the Arturia collection - for the first time getting an 80s timbre is much easier with synthesis, especially when matching the virtual synth to the band I.E the gliding saw sound from Ridin the storm out matches perfectly with the Mini Moog vst.

My only struggle so far is trying to map HD-1 wave layers over. Even having the Wavestation and WaveState Vsts from Korg isn’t enough, as many of the wave sounds aren’t there or sound different. I think for those I’ll go the Robot Sample into Kontakt instrument path. I just don’t have to time to try and create those sounds one by one for now. Does playing a patch made up of a ton of samples take up more resources on the machine, though?

The variations is my favorite feature so far - I love the fact that I can turn instruments on and off and even change the keyboard splits between variations, so far it’s allowed me to contain all of the sounds for each song within one rackspace, and the setlist song part makes it easy to order and repeat as needed.

Still waiting for the dedicated computer to come, but so far it’s been a lot of fun working with this tool.

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If you are a software developer, then I think you might like using the MOTU interfaces, I use the MOTU624. They have embedded mixer with DSP for mixer functions (EQ, Compression, Gate, etc) and Reverb. You can create as many channels between the Computer and the DSP. As well as using the multiple Inputs and Outputs for different purposes. And it is pretty easy to rack mount the MOTU64 and MAC Mini side by side. Think of it as a programmable Key Largo so that you can use the sounds from your Nord 88 in the GigPerformer rackspace. The MOTU Audio mixing can be controlled using OSC which I think you should be able to add controls in the Rackspace to control MOTU Mixer and MOTU FX settings. And then leave the MAC Mini for synth sounds. https://cdn-data.motu.com/downloads/audio/AVB/docs/OSC%20Quick%20Reference.pdf

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And another thing, you may want to consider using the OWC ClingOn devices when connecting USB-C / TB3 cables to MAC Mini and the I/O interfaces. These devices ensure that the shell of the USB-C connector stays positioned, especially those cables are inside of a rack. I use them on all my USB-C connections. https://www.owc.com/solutions/clingon

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I looked at the Motu - looks like it be very useful and could easily fit next to the mac mini. Is it flexible where you could combine multiple inputs into one outgoing stereo channel like the key largo does or configure it to pass straight through? Do I imagine I could just stick a DI box at the back of the and run a short cable into it to avoid having to try and plug stuff in all the time? I’ll definitely checking that as a future add on.

In the meantime, all of my rack gear is here. Just in time as I had a disastrous experience with the Kronos at a Friday night show with volume dropping all over the place and then it decided that it didn’t need to read the USB midi port at all for the 3rd set, so I had to manually select patches, just as we started to deviate from the set list. For the first time it noticeable to many people, especially the sound guy.

So I’ve spent the weekend madly sampling my complex Kronos sounds onto the new computer,
I learned about the Kontrol Creator tools and scripting language today, so I’ll be adapting a script to automate the sample imports into Kontrol, since it doesn’t work with sample robot sxt files anymore.

My goal is to have the new setup ready to go by my next show this Saturday. I’ve got to setup 25 songs for that band which the Kronos is used for. Then prepare a different 40 songs for my other band before and April 2 show… Feels daunting, but doable.

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Here is a design photo of the 4U rack that I put together. Although I use a MAC Book with TB3 connection between the rack using the CalDigit TS3 in the rack next to the MOTU 624. It has all of the USB connections plus USB-C for an external 2TB drive for samples. Since I bought my laptop in 2019 and 2TB was largest size available for the Macbook, I wanted to have ample space for various sample libraries.

I also would recommend that you do something to make sure that the MAC MINI stays cool enough in a rack mount configuration. I have an older MacMini that I use for standard desktop operation and it gets a lot of dust on the intake and exhaust such that I need to remove the bottom cover periodically and use a vacuum and blower to clean the airflow and enable the fan to keep the CPU cool. Sometimes it shuts down on me when I am doing CPU intensive tasks so it may be prudent to give good airflow and enable yourself to remove the MAC Mini periodically to keep the cooling paths clear.

For connectivity I use a 1-U 16 space D-Type panel which allows me to use the various Neutrik D Shell connectors. XLR in the first 7 spots.

The first two is where I connect the stereo out of my Kurzweil Forte into the MOTU.
I use a microphone for vocoder effects so that is input 3.
Then there are two sets of stereo outputs. One for the PA and given that they are XLR, I rarely need DI to send to PA.
Then I have another set of stereo outputs for my personal monitors that I bring.
Then I use the Neutrik USB connectors to enable connecting the MIDI and other devices into the MAC Mini. I have a USB connection on my pedalboard which has two AudioFront MIDI Expression Quattro connectors that allow 4 switches and 2 expression pedals to be sent via MIDI over USB to GigPerformer. I have USB for Forte MIDI out. I also sometimes use a Roli Rise 49 and then I have a Novation XL control surface. Neutrik Ethernet connectors enable ethernet connectivity for my digital mixer control and others devices when I am doing the show mix. When I am home and rehearsal, I connect the local D-Link router to my home network so that I can get internet connectivity while working as well.

Obviously you could expose more of the 624 I/O audio jacks ports to the front panel but these work for me.

Here are some links:
https://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php

https://www.neutrik.com/en/neutrik/products/ethercon-rj45-connectors/ethercon-chassis-connectors
https://www.neutrik.com/en/neutrik/products/multimedia-connectors/usb

For audio inputs, I use the Neutrik NA3FDM which has XLR-F on the outside and XLR-M on the inside

For audio outputs, I use the Neutrik NA3MDF which has XLR-M on the outside and XLR-F on the inside

Keyboard 4U Rack
Keyboard 4U Rack1356×719 172 KB

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Good to see some familiar faces here @Michelkeijzers ! I just found out about Gig Performer and currently, I’m in the trial period but it seems like I will be making the switch from Kronos as well. Just watched the stream of @DaveBoulden on Gig Performer YT channel and Advanced Song Chooser also looks great, especially the grid view feels home after 11 years of using Kronos! Maybe I should remake all my Kronos sound packs for Gig Performer :grin:

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You’ll find there are quite a few people here who have transitioned from the Kronos… so lots of experience to draw upon.

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I had a Kronos for years and before that an Oasys. That was an inspirational instrument.

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Hello @UmutErhan and welcome to this community! :slight_smile:

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Hello Umut … welcome to this club … I never regretted moving from the Kronos to Gig Performer. Maybe only that I did not move earlier :-).

Thanks for all your translation work for PCG Tools back in the days.

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@npudar , @Michelkeijzers thank you guys! I’m glad the community here is very active, I hope I can contribute too as soon as I’m more confident using Gig Performer.

ps. PCG Tools still helps me a lot, thank you for your amazing work!

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Here’s the link that will help you build confidence :slight_smile:

Link: Gig Performer Resources

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:heart_eyes: wow that’s a really useful list! Thank you!