Enhanced Patch Persist?

I currently use a Roland A-50 as the master patch changer for my live keyboard/vocal rig because it has the ability to delay a program change hit until all notes and sustain pedal are released regardless of if it is the sustain pedal or actual held notes that are the last to be lifted. This is the most natural way to move from one set of sounds to another as it allows one to hold onto sonic tails and notes until just before the end of the last bar in a verse for example before one lifts ones hands off the keys and the sustain pedal to play the first beat of the bar in the chorus with the next set of sounds.

Gig Performers Patch Persist function is similar to this but I have noticed that the key note off and pedal sustained notes act independently: in other words, unlike on the A-50, the sustain pedal or a held down note does not have the last word before the patch change takes place. Hence it is not possible to play more notes with the current sound despite the sustain pedal still being held down: it appears that even with the sustain pedal still being held down it is the note off that triggers the sound to change for those notes that are released from the fingered keys.

I have been using the A-50 and A-80 ever since the late 80’s because both the sustain pedal and held keys have got to be released before any sonic change (the patch change) takes place- these appear to have been the only master keyboards to have ever been blessed with this way of relaying program change.

I actually use the A-50’s chain lists to program change my rig via two DP2 foot pedals connected to the “Up" & "Down” pedal inputs on the back of the board but the actual foot switch pedals are mounted on my Korg Kronos facia with Blu-tac so that I can operate them by hand. As much as I do also use the A-50’s keys for extra playable key zones there are gigs where it would be great to just play on the Kronos and have a little independent foot switch to midi converter box to take over the relayed program changing roll… I’ve been looking at the Boss FS1-WL which has pedal inputs that can be converted to midi…

Hence I was wondering if this “A-50/80 mode" could be implemented somehow into GP as a further option in the Patch Persist functionality ?

I like the current implementation, as with this you can play notes, press sustain, switch the rackspaces.
Previous notes hold by sustain remain with the previous sound and new notes are played with the new sound.
I have many use cases for this.

Sure this is a nice feature but most of the time I just need to build notes with the original sounds before the program change takes place. You can’t do this at the moment.

And when you wait with the rackspace change until needed?

Perhaps to make my point clearer:
With the Roland A-50/80 as the master program changer in my rig I am able for example to be playing the last bar in a verse, hit the sustain pedal, take one hand off the keys to hit the DP2 pedal attached to the program up jack in the A-50/80 that will only release that program change once all keys and sustain pedal are actually released which is the natural way to then progress to the first chord in the chorus which will then play with the new set of sounds.
Contrarily using Patch persist in GP, currently if I am sustaining with the sustain pedal but lift my fingers off the notes that patch change effects any new notes fingered: in other words the sustain pedal has lost its hold on any further notes played. The point is one doesn’t have to time the patch change trigger with the A-50/80: as long as you have the sustain pedal on any further notes you play will still resound with the original sounds.

OK, does sustain remain to work as sustain when you switch a program?
Or is it just to delay the sound change until released?

Yes! using the A-50/80 the sustain pedal continues to sustain notes as well as holding the release of the patch change

EDIT!.. I haven’t answered your question… or rather I’m a little confused by it!.. Certainly my statement above is the scenario I wd like to replicate using GP Patch Persist using an independent dual footswitch to midi box

So when you change the sound it only gets heard when you release the sustain and press new notes, right?

If this is the case, I am wondering why that is really needed when you can change the rackspace via a midi controller.

I think we are confusing each other here!..

The A50/A80 functionality is what I am hoping I can achieve using Patch persist and an independent dual foot switcher. (I edited my previous post!)

I’ll post a short video showing clearly what I’m after!

I guess I don’t understand why you don’t wait until you actually need to use the new sound before sending the program change – that way you get to hold onto the old notes that are still held down.

Why change the program early?

Actually my previous post did answer your question regarding “So when you change the sound it only gets heard when you release the sustain pedal and press new notes”…
I am indeed patch changing via midi! It’s just at the moment that patch change is relayed from the A-50/A-80. Id like to take the A50/80 out of my rig and use a separate little foot switcher to midi box to relay the patch change and have program persist work the same way as the A50/80 does where the sustain pedal really does have the last word before the patch change takes place

I think with a little scripting you can do that

This is a gig script

var TW : MidiInDevice

On ControlChangeEvent(m : ControlChangeMessage) matching 24 from TW
 SetEnvVariable("CHANGE", "DO")

And this is a rackspace script

var MIN : MidiInBlock

On ControlChangeEvent(m : ControlChangeMessage) Matching 64 from MIN
 SendNow(m, MIN)
 if GetCCValue(m) == 0 and GetEnvVariable("CHANGE") == "DO" then
    SetEnvVariable("CHANGE", "DONE")

The ides is that in the gig script a CC message is received wich indicates a switch to the next rackspace should be done.
In the local rackspace script then when the sustain is released a switch to the next rackspace is done when desired.

Quick & Dirty.

No need to change the design of patch persist.

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Hi David, the great thing with the A-50/80’s functionality is that I don’t need to time the program change hit- as long as I still have the sustain pedal held and/or am still playing legato notes it is when I actually release everything that the patch change takes place which at the end of any passage of music is the most natural way to have the sounds change.
I am about to make a short video that will make it all very clear. it’s a sfar simpler thing when you see it actually in action than trying to explain it!

Thanks pianopaul! I need to re-read your description here to get my head around your proposed solution and I’ll certainly give your script a bash!

David, in most cases I tend to hold the sustain pedal hit the patch change then play a few more notes that still resound with the current sounds, then release everything (hands off keys and foot off the sustain pedal) to then play the opening chord/notes of the next passage of music with the new patch.

Yes, I understand completely what you are doing — but I don’t understand why you can’t wait until you have played those “few more notes” before triggering the patch change. That approach allows the old notes to stay on while you start playing the next song, which gives a really nice smooth transition.

David, yes I understand about the smooth transition scenario- I guess over the decades I’ve been using the Rolands I’ve just got used to the “lazy” timing of hitting the patch change and rarely need to morph sounds. The Korg kronos does actually have its own “SST” release functionality where you can force sounds to not get cut off up to 10 seconds between pach changes. Also the reverb tales do enough to mask any sounds with quick envelope release settings. I dare say if I analyse all my sound patch changeovers there are some where the patch change hit is the last thing I hit rather than added notes once I’m holding the sustain pedal!

…I just think for me I’ve got so used to not worrying about timing the patch change to the very end because the release of the sustain pedal takes care of that for me!

Right, but your version does not allow transitions that have both the old and the new sounds available whereas the current implementation of GP does support that. Your need is addressed by not changing the patch until you need to. So you can get both results.

I get the historical “lazy” and one indeed gets used to things but given that that GP with patch persist has been around for 6 years now and a different approach has never been suggested - that makes it rather difficult to justify a significant change (or addition) in the behavior.

Further, given that this CAN probably be done using GP Script, it seems completely unnecessary to implement this inside GP.