Converting to GP...the process

Over the past 2 months I have been converting my repertoire of Yes music from the old Brainspawn Forte to GP 4. Starting from scratch, I have basically been learning about GP as I go…asking questions, and getting great support from @dhj and the entire GP Community (thanks to all who have offered their nuggets of wisdom!).

Now that I am getting close to the finish line for this massive (for me) project, I thought I would share some insight for anyone who might be interested (especially newer users).

When using Forte, I had an older, 2nd Gen i7 running at about 2.2 GHz with 16 GB RAM., and would run my entire show without a hitch. However, when building my Master GIG…it just didn’t cut it. I found it crashing a lot…especially when switching to a new song. Even with the Predictive Loading…moving between songs was a chore, and I crossed my fingers every time hoping it would work its way through. I decided an upgrade was necessary…so I went with a new, 11th Gen i7 running at 3.3 Ghz and 64 GB RAM. That made a WORLD of difference, but my Master GIG (which is currently about 75% of the band’s complete repertoire and growing) takes about 2 minutes to load, whereas the master file in Forte loaded in about 8 seconds. Why was this?

Because GP and Forte are designed so differently, I realized that the reason was likely the fact that in Forte, you essentially load every plugin once into what would be (the equivalent of) a “Global Rackspace.” From there, you select which plugins you want for each “Scene” (GP equivalent: Variation) loading whatever sounds you need. While there are “setlists” and “songs” in Forte…I never used them. Every song I programmed was just a grouping of Scenes, and I arranged them as needed.

For GP - I was told by many to treat every song as its own entity…just start from scratch by creating a new rackspace…load what you need…don’t worry about the next tune. In hindsight, I don’t necessarily agree, because as each song loads I see a new instance of plugins loading with every new rackspace. Were I to do it all over again…I likely would load the majority of my plugins in a Global Rackspace and keep them there to use in my songs, and supplement with other plugins as needed. I think this would potentially decrease the size of my GIG, and also speed up the loading time of the GIG file. At this point - my Master GIG file takes about 21 GB of memory. It’ll probably be hovering at about 32 when all is said and done. As long as its stable (it has been so far), I don’t really care. But it seems that I could have decreased the use of those resources considerably had I took advantage of the Global Rackspace, loaded the majority of my plugins in there, and bypassed whatever I wasn’t using at any given time.

I also had a revelation with the Audio Interface. I know that there are really cheap ones, and there are really expensive ones. For me, I was using a really OLD one. Again, for Forte…being an older application, the Tascam US144 Mk II worked flawlessly. But the drivers were old (10 years!), it wasn’t supported any longer, and it was NOT playing nice with the latest version of Win10. I realized this when, even with the new laptop, I was experiencing MIDI lock, and frequent audio dropouts. The last straw was when I discovered that using the native Windows audio drivers resulted in LESS CPU usage than the Tascam interface! Ergo, another upgrade (sigh). I finally choose the SSL2+ by Solid State Logic. Since then, there has been zero MIDI lock or audio dropouts, latency is non-existent (to me) and on average I would estimate a decrease in CPU usage of about 20% versus the Windows drivers running at 44.1/128.

Where I found GP really shines is the Rear Panel. The GUI is clean and the ability to use and manipulate FX plugins absolutely blows away Forte. The use of widgets on the Front Panel is really icing on the cake more than anything else. Extremely useful. It’s one of those things where you don’t really need them until you start to use them…then you can’t live without them! The customization makes live performance so much…I won’t say “easier,” but I will say “more convenient.” The initial programming of rackapaces that result in variations, that result in songs, that result in setlists is more time consuming in GP than what I experienced with Forte…but to use an old programming term: Garbage In = Garbage Out. It is ultimately worth it, because the time invested translates to more flexibility and control when you need it.

Finally, the Rig Manager is probably the ultimate blessing. It really sucked programming new stuff from scratch in Forte, because experimenting on the performance rig, with the performance laptop was cumbersome and tiring. Now, I can sit like a gentleman with 2 (different) controllers at my workstation desk and computer, fiddle and tweak until my heart’s content, and then simply export the new song, and import it to the performance rig. That, in and of itself, is worth the price of admission to GP for me.

There is so much more I have discovered, but this is my essential thoughts based on the conversion experience. I plan on making a detailed video at some point after the holidays. Until then, I wish you all a Merry Christmas and I look forward to further growth with GP!

Best Regards,
Joe

6 Likes

With songs you should reuse rackspaces and variations, not create new ones for every song. You can customize widget values used within a song as needed.

Great!

Not very practical for Yes music. The sonic palette is immense. I could get away with some stuff using that concept, but a very small percentage.

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I also play progressive rock and have not run into this limitation. Perhaps if you shared a few of your rackspaces we can see if there is a better design allowing for reuse within GP songs.
Put a mellotron in the global rackspace. Every song is better with mellotron :wink:

Oh yeah…I mentioned that in my OP…I SHOULD have mounted a bunch of plugins in the Global Rackspace and supplemented along the way. Too late now…maybe next year. That was the thing with Forte…everything was loaded into one rack all at once…you pulled from it what you needed, when you needed it. So startup was really fast. I see GP loading each song, and with each song is a new instance for every plugin I am reusing. That’s not very efficient.

Live and learn :wink:
Joe

Are you actually using Songs in the Setlist view…or are you building Songs as Rackspaces?

No, I am building everything.
Some songs use 1 rackspace with variations…other songs use as much as 6 rackspaces and variations within them.

That’s how you fit this:
Rick+Wakeman

Into this:
Rig

4 Likes

So…if all of those controllers are going into one PC, are you using multi instances of GP?

EDIT: Forget that. But still, do you you use multi instances?

For 2 controllers?
No.

I’m confused by this. How can the startup be slower or faster if you’re loading the same plugins? Why can’t you load all of the plugins into one rackspace (something I STRONGLY dissagree with btw), but why can’t you do that and then bypass the ones you don’t need with variations?

If you “see” any loading once your gig file is loaded - then you must be using predictive loading. If you do - what makes you think that there’s a “new” instance for each plugin?

@djogon

When I load my GIG file…it will say something along the lines of “Loading XXX” then it will list the plugins for that tune, then it will move on to the next one, “Loading YYY,” then it will list the plugins. So with every rack (or song…not sure of the process), it appears to be opening a new instance of whatever plugins I use across multiple songs/rackspaces. Maybe that’s not how it works…but that’s how it looks.

I do that when I can, and had I been more familiar with the Global Rackspace when I started this endeavor, I would have taken more advantage of that. I was unaware you can use widgets to call up sound patches within a plugin (ie: use a widget to initiate a preset). I have to investigate that.

No, I am not. Once it’s all loaded, that’s it. It’s when the GIG is initially loading…I see a screen that shows the percentage and at that point it is going through all the instances of plugins through the various rackspaces (or songs…again, not sure what is exactly loading at startup).

I think I understand now. The key sentence here was this:

Which is most likely what you were doing with Forte to change sounds. While this may or may not work it is utterly unstable and indeterministic. I strongly advise NOT to switch patches in plugins during a performance. You can’t just switch a patch in a plugin and expect it to:

  • Happen instantly
  • Happen without any noise
  • Always be stable and never crash

Some plugins do this better than others. Samplers need to load samples which means it will take time until you can play those sounds. FX processors need to get rid of stuff they already have in their buffers, many simply crash if you happen to do this too quickly. Most will at the very least produce some kind of unwanted noise.

What all this means is that instead of concentrating on your playing - you actually have to be very tentative when you perform. You have to stop playing before switching patches, consciously think about the possibility of a crash, noise, or other issues … Sorry but I couldn’t perform well having this hanging over my head. I once had my IEM cable almost give up so to minimize the potential disaster I couldn’t move freely - it was an awful experience - when you’re on stage - the only thing you want to think about is your performance.

Yes - it will take longer to initially load your gig file in GP as you will create multiple instances of some plugins - so what? Once loaded it should be rock solid and allow you to solely concentrate on performance. A few extra minutes of loading, while you hook up all the other stuff, should really not be a big deal.

To be clear, I have never used widgets to call up sound patches within a plugin. That’s why there are multiple instances within the GIG.

With Forte, I loaded up all my plugins in one rack. They just sat there. Whatever I needed for a particular Scene, I would un-mute them…assign them to where they needed to be on the controllers, assign soundbanks (presets), and any MIDI customizations, and then save the Scene. Everything programmed to that Scene was unique to that Scene, including the sound presets. When I would advance to the next Scene, any sounds sitting in that Rack would change automatically…Forte handled the patch change.
It was instantaneous and without a hitch.

Now, the downsides:

  1. all the samplers had to have all their samples loaded at startup, spread across all the channels and ports, where they would sit until called upon. If you tried to load samples between Scenes…CRASH!
  2. FX? What FX? In order to use FX in Forte, they had to be placed in that rack and leave them there…you could toggle them on and off, but you really couldn’t manipulate them with any real flexibility. If I wanted FX, they had better be onboard within the plugin. Very limiting to work with.

I am not disagreeing with you…because there are multiple (and I mean MULTIPLE) instances of plugins that need to be loaded with GP, it is going to take considerably longer to load the file up. I am not complaining, I am stating a fact and the obvious. As long as it’s stable, that’s all I care about.

There are tradeoffs…even with loading all my samples in Forte upfront, 4 hours worth of Yes music programming loaded within seconds. But, I didn’t have the control and flexibility I have now. I didn’t have access to modern plugins. I couldn’t really use standalone FX. I couldn’t map to the physical knobs on my controller with any ease whatsoever. I couldn’t Patch Persist. I did find the MIDI mapping easier, and the Rig Manager (if you wanna call it that), while not nearly as powerful, did auto-recognize my different controller setups (that was pretty cool).

I am 1000% happy with GP and can’t wait for my maiden voyage with it in front of an audience in a few weeks!

Joe

I’m not quite clear on this — independent of the host, individual plugins themselves generally take many seconds to load so I’m not quite sure how an entire show could actually be loaded in seconds. That’s just not physically possible. Are you saying that with Forté you could open that host and start playing your entire set (arbitrary songs) in “seconds”? Five seconds? Ten seconds?

Yes…and I can easily make a video for you of my master setlist opening up if you’d like. Or do a vid conference to see anything else I was explaining.

Joe

And after seconds all plugins are loaded and can be played ?

Yes, that is correct.

How many and what plugins?

If memory serves…this was my Rack (more or less):
2 instances of Korg M1
Korg Wavestation
Korg MS-20
Korg Mono/Poly
Korg PolySix
2 instances of VB3
2 instances of Minimonsta
NI Pro-53
Kontakt 5
Sampletank 3
Sonik Synth 2
SampleMoog
SampleTron
Massive
Sonic Projects OB-Xa
ImpOSCar
Steinberg D’Cota
maybe one or 2 others I don’t remember.
You can see why it was time to upgrade…but those plugins served me very well!!