Guitar plugins thoughts

I agree with that 100%.

Switching to all digital and silent stage was the best thing we did for our audience, and that’s what should matter. And unless playing stadiums, there’s rarely a place for a loud amp.

But it can feel awkward and “wrong” to some people, which throws them off. And even when they get used to it, the sound searching never ends.

However, most amp sims are in fact bad, and it’s very logical that they are. It’s hard to model tube amp well, and it’s also computationally intensive. Most amp sims take shortcuts either in research - the models are oversimplified, or in oversampling - you get a lot of aliasing, or go the simplified way of “profiling” like Kemper/NDSP/tonex - you get a narrow range of settings where they work relatively well, but deviate from that and it’s getting increasingly off target.

Plus their main audience is the bedroom guitarist playing through headphones, so first and foremost they make their plugins sound well in those conditions, to impress the suckers during the trial period.

Even understanding what makes amp sound what it is takes a lot of research. Some of it is available in science papers, but most you need to figure out on your own, and it’s tricky - distorted guitar is essentially a lot of wideband noise, which is then filtered by the cab and then filtered again in the mix, and what’s left should sound well. The first temptation is to disregard what’s being filtered out, but you lose something when you do it this way, those filters aren’t brickwalls. And of course real amps that you model are tricky as well - they are very imperfect, real component parameters deviate from their nominal values etc etc.

Who even has the budget for all this, where’s the ROI? The market is very small, the pains you need to go through are great. More recently everyone seems to go the profiling/ML route, of course, which is cheaper and doesn’t need rare talent, data scientists are a dime a dozen now, unlike people who can model the physical process well. But then you get very rough approximations with some settings, and a lot of these models are way off in a lot of circumstances - after all, you can’t practically measure an infinite number of combinations of all knobs and switches to get to the proper non linear transfer function in all conditions. I still haven’t seen any profiler where master volume would work as it should - be transparent at lower settings, and bring in that sweet power amp compression/slight saturation at higher ones, without going too far, EQ knobs seem to be “regular” EQs without the sometimes weird effects they have in real amps etc.

Have you tried Neural Amp Modeling? NAM? AxeFX is great but NAM is actually more accurate and it is a (free) plug-in. If you pair it with Quantum Speaker, which is actually a dynamic speaker profile and it is so much better than IRs! It’s pretty much the best you can do!
I’m extremely picky with my sound and I can spend days tweaking a single RS. :wink:

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Yes, I played with it, and it has the same problems as any black box profiler does, it’s basically the same stuff NDSP and Tonex do. If you’re lucky to find a profile that works well for the type of sound you’re after, matches your guitar and was taken with knobs in positions where you’d use them, and the person who captured the amp did his job well - good. Or if you want to capture your own amp (I don’t have any). I wasn’t so lucky, I guess.

ML tricks indeed improved the black box models greatly - initially those were essentially tables of measurements - but there’s no magic and they can’t overcome the limitations of the approach itself.

:person_shrugging: What does it even mean? There’s not much “dynamic” about the cabinet unless you drive the speaker to the limit and it starts to compress and distort, which isn’t an awfully pleasant type of saturation anyway. There’s the resonance of the speaker and reaction of the amp to the speaker impedance curve (since a tube amp has high output impedance, you get considerable feedback effects, which also depend on the amp’s negative feedback circuit, how it’s implemented and whether it exists at all in an amp/channel - Rectifier Red Modern channel doesn’t have it, AFAIR, so you get that signature bassy/fizzy sound as a result). But it’s not an EQ, not a compressor, you can’t emulate this behavior outside of the amp model, you need to account for specific amp-cab combination to make it work (which Axe-FX does, by the way, and it just won’t happen if you use two separate plugins for the amp and the cab). And there’s saturation from the mic-preamp circuit, which is indeed non-linear, but I never found it important enough to care (and Axe-FX also models that).

Out of all those things the speaker-amp interaction is by far the most important, and you can’t get it in a separate package really.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion, I’ll take a look at the quantum thing.

The other problem with pure amp sims is that even if they are good I still need to collect the pedal sims separately, manage and control them, which makes using the stuff more difficult. Not impossible, sure, but I guess I’m too lazy for that (and I already spent too much money on plugins anyway :smiley:). So NAM by itself is free, great, but I can’t use it by itself.

From the usability perspective, in my experience, nothing beats Helix Native, but for a reason I don’t even remember I went the NDSP route at some point, so don’t want to spend money on another plugin now.

People can hardly tell the difference.

:smiley:

Another video that popped yesterday: The Internet’s Most Hated Pedals! - Are They That Bad?

A lot of these boil down to people having no idea how to dial these pedals correctly.

I think this is also true with the plugins.

Cool! :slight_smile:
I’m not that picky. :slight_smile:

Well, people often can’t hear wrong notes as well. But when I play I do hear the difference.

Also, those demos are fine, but the real difference comes when you start playing in real live mixes.

So all these comparisons are utterly useless.

Well to a certain degree that’s true, you can work around or hide a plugin’s deficiencies by eqing and generally crafting your mix around that.

It’s also not true because they sound differently, and it’s an objective fact. Stuff like aliasing or intermodulation distortion can be measured, and it’s also objective - and even if you are unable to discern it immediately in a demo on YouTube, you do hear it, it will simply make you tired of listening to a sound over time, something will be off and annoying.

Other than that - yes, you can probably play anything with one pedal or with Guitar Rig even, and tweak it to a tolerable level.

But why, what’s the point?

If there are better solutions, why use crappy ones? I mean, if one doesn’t have any money, has Gig Performer, and there’s a free TH-U plugin there already - by all means, that’s what he can and should use. But if there’s a choice, why put up with all this crap?

In your use case, do you use a real amp and send audio to gig performer for processing?

No, I’m certainly done with real amps. Maybe when I retire and have a lot of money (and an isolated room), I’ll get a collection of real amps, but to me they have no practical purpose.

I’ve gone all digital years ago, and have no interest in going back to amps and pedals.

Currently I don’t use anything apart from GP and plugins because I need everything to be as compact and possible, when/if things settle down a bit, I’ll replace plugins with digital outboard hardware (Axe-FX if nothing better comes up by that time), and I’ll probably still keep using GP for automation, backing tracks and such, I like it better than using a DAW for this.

I went down the spark amp route for a while, everything is locked into their ecosystem.
Bought Bias FX so i could use hardware or software and get similar sound.
Dissaster on stage, the Bias FX locked up as it could not find its license over the internet, it was the last time I ever wanted software that requires an internet connection ( bye positivegrid and roland soundcloud)
Now use amplitude 5, I still use GR7 for presets, but IK A5 works well for me, I use a FCB1010 to control effects via midi, Amp sims are good but for me the big deal breaker was the reliable Midi mapping to the effects chain. and allowing both pre and post effects chains to the amp sims ( oh and good price 99 euros at the mo).
This allowed me the option of both presets per song part and pedal control of reverb chorus overdrive etc.
don’t get me wrong, some are great in a studio running in ableton but not live with GP.

I wonder why you’re using GR presets if you have Gig Performer?

I wouldn’t touch such plugins even for home use, let alone live playing.

Even GP occasionally loses the license for whatever reason, so I need to find the email with the serial, but that’s at least easy to restore and doesn’t require a connection.

Watched that video. Well, what can I say - did you mean it as an example of people unable to dial pedals correctly? :smiley:

Cause the guys in the video certainly didn’t dial useful tones out of some of those pedals, and instead pronounced them sounding good.

That MXR pedal was truly awful - good luck with using such a tone in a live gig. :joy:

GP will need to reactivated when something changes on your system that makes GP think the computer has changed. Typically, updating the OS causes this. If you don’t update your OS, then GP on that machine will run forever. My live performance laptops are still Intel machines running 10.14 and haven’t been upgraded.

That’s probably was the reason, yes.

Not that big of a deal with offline activation.

@vangrieg ,

can you share any videos or audio files where you play?
I would like to hear your sound.

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You can’t do offline activation. The only time GP must connect to our servers is when it detects that that the machine might have changed due to an upgrade

Oh, good to know

Want to enjoy my sloppy playing? I’m not into recording much, but I’ll find some samples, ok.

Preferably best sound he can get with the Fractal! :innocent:

Samples of you playing?

@pianopaul ok, here are some samples.

A video taken on a phone by somebody with me playing guitar through Axe-FX with its pitch shifter creating the pattern. Had to cut a short piece out and decrease quality to fit within the size limit here.

Some audio recording pieces - I was trying to learn mixing, without great success, as you can hear. In the second one I was playing something and reamping something someone else played, don’t remember exactly. All guitar is played through Axe-FX.

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Sincerely, for my taste, I wouldn’t give high scores for your tone.

For example, to this tone, I would give significantly higher score.

But that is OK, everybody has their own taste.

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If course you would :joy: